tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post3814487903130258119..comments2024-03-28T20:09:43.455-04:00Comments on Touch the Banner: DeVeon Smith, WolverineUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger119125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-84360542043858903792012-04-25T11:50:31.503-04:002012-04-25T11:50:31.503-04:00I think it depends on your definition of "gre...I think it depends on your definition of "great." I don't think Hart was a great college player, but I reserve the term "great" for very special players who are Heisman winners or Heisman-caliber players. Hart was good but not THAT good. He's in the conversation for one of the best Michigan players/running backs, but on the whole spectrum of college football players...not so much.Thunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09708792562446136381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-42393295504114316162012-04-25T11:37:32.283-04:002012-04-25T11:37:32.283-04:00Lankownia,
I've beaten the drum on this multi...Lankownia,<br /><br />I've beaten the drum on this multiple times on MGoBlog, so forgive me if you've seen this before. <br /><br />Just because a running back is short, this alone does not make him comparable to Mike Hart. Hart was slow, in terms of straight-line speed. But he had a very quick first step, outstanding lateral mobility, excellent balance, and far more power than one would expect for his size - almost Maurice Jones-Drew. Dennis Norfleet is a scatback. He will never break tackles like Mike Hart. He'll never knock DLs backward, as Hart did on more than one occasion. Vincent Smith, bless his rabbit-chasing heart, has the desire and the toughness to try to break tackles, but he rarely gains yardage after first contact. <br /><br />Mike Hart was a truly great college player. He wasn't good for his size. He was a great back. His only serious drawback was his inability to stay healthy (OK, his speed too - but if Hart had breakaway speed he would have been on a short list for best RBs in college football history.) <br /><br />/rant over.STW P. Brabbsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-54607137393445829402012-03-20T23:03:50.218-04:002012-03-20T23:03:50.218-04:00I'm differentiating between college level succ...I'm differentiating between college level success and NFL level success. I'm not citing production. I'm citing players with major individual college awards. They don't give Heisman's for team success. They don't give Davey O'Brien or Doak Walker awards for team success. Dayne, Ware, Tebow, Couch, have all been voted as the best player at their positions and as the best individual player in the nation, at any position, by a lot of people who make a career out of college football, not by me. <br /><br />You're conflating college potential with NFL potential. For you, if a guy had a great college career, but failed in the NFL, ipso facto, his college success was a product of being surrounded by NFL talent, or had an innovative coach, or a superior scheme, etc. On the other hand, if he had a great NFL career, but an ok college one, he was on a bad team. You look at Ryan Leaf and see an average QB who had an innovative coach. I look at Ryan Leaf and I see a kid with an exceptionally strong arm, who had a coach smart enough to know how to put it to maximum use. I'm betting that Price had a system that he knew was perfect for a kid with a really strong arm, so he went out and recruited Leaf. It would've been great if Leaf had a really great mind to go with his really strong arm, but really all Price needed was a kid with a really strong arm. That is my point. In college, it more than suffices to be really good at just one thing. <br /><br />I'd say You suffer from a horrible case of survivorship bias when you assert that the skills that make a good college RB generally translate to the NFL. Ron Dayne, Mike Hart, Kijana Carter, Rashan Salaam, Larry Johnson, all guys who were good to great college back but NFL busts. Hell, Archie Griffin never really made an impact in the NFL, fergodsakes. I guess his two Heisman's were in recognition of team success?MosherJordannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-36819881003861332792012-03-20T17:05:17.542-04:002012-03-20T17:05:17.542-04:00If you say this is a common dictate from coaches, ...If you say this is a common dictate from coaches, I'll take your word for it. But coaches say a lot of things, and players frequently don't do exactly what they're told the way that they are told. Ryan Van Bergen probably didn't 'get low' as much as the coaches told him to when he was an underclassmen, but it probably doesn't reflect a character deficiency or disrespect or lack of work-effort.<br /><br />I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it seems like pretty flimsy evidence as far as red-flags go.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-69921159952180788042012-03-20T17:00:08.354-04:002012-03-20T17:00:08.354-04:00I'm not arguing that everyone gives equal effo...I'm not arguing that everyone gives equal effort or diminishing hustling at all. It is critical and can be more important than talent or ability. Obviously.<br /><br />I'm arguing that that some forms of effort matter and others don't. Tim Hardaway may spend 2 minutes extra every shower making sure he scrubs behind his ears for all I know. Or he may rip off his warm-ups faster than anyone on the team. Who cares?<br /><br />You view not sprinting to endzone as indicative of a larger problem and I don't agree. I don't think it's meaningful and I don't see any evidence of this. It's a matter of opinion/conjecture. It's not like you're saying "I noticed that Mike Hart didn't do this and Kevin Grady did."<br /><br />To me, it's kind of like criticizing a ball-carrier for getting out of bounds. It COULD be a sign of a lack of something or other, but it's probably irrelevant. The other comparison is baseball related: is it running out a ground ball or how quickly you get around on homeruns? One matters (even if only a little), the other doesn't.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-6587956151961187512012-03-20T16:46:34.005-04:002012-03-20T16:46:34.005-04:00I'm differentiating between talent and product...I'm differentiating between talent and production. You're conflating production with fame and accolades (derived from team success). They can be great players and not have the same level of success due to the environment - the coaches and players around them. Being 'one-dimensional' is a separate issue.<br /><br />Superior talents regularly get out-shined. Ware is not that good of a QB, but had great success in college. Rogers and Brees had successful careers in college, but they played on bad teams that didn't win enough games to garner Heisman attention. Tom Brady was a better QB than Drew Bledsoe (who wasn't bad in the NFL but had many more accolades than Brady.) Joey Harrington and Ryan Leaf looked great in college - but a lot of that was because of their coaches being innovative. By his Senior year, John Navarre looked like a world-class QB, but had NFL talent all around him.<br /><br />The examples go on forever. If you want to use college production to decide who is an 'exceptional' player, fine. <br /><br />Denard Robinson was a high 4-star recruit and will be drafted in the top 2-4 rounds. Tim Tebow took over as an NFL starter in his 2nd year and won a playoff game.<br /><br />Yes, you don't have to be an NFL player to succeed in college, but the skills that make a good college RB generally translate to the NFL. And if you succeed in both college AND the NFL you're probably a better player and talent than someone who succeeds only in college.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-27746891390392456972012-03-20T14:05:16.341-04:002012-03-20T14:05:16.341-04:00I can almost guarantee that every high school juni...I can almost guarantee that every high school junior has been told to sprint across the goal line.Thunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09708792562446136381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-11660771346421666572012-03-20T13:59:49.745-04:002012-03-20T13:59:49.745-04:00Equating jogging into the end zone and having a ch...Equating jogging into the end zone and having a character issue is pretty weak. You need more than one data point to extrapolate. Sometimes the kid just needs a word from a coach and it never happens again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-1179758669509212942012-03-20T13:14:11.904-04:002012-03-20T13:14:11.904-04:00You can be one dimensional in college and still be...You can be one dimensional in college and still be a good or even great player at the college level. I don't know if Ware was a better college QB than Brees, but I do know that he was a good enough college player to win a Heisman, A Davey O'Brien award, and get voted into the college football hall of fame. Tebow will be the same, and we know how well his NFL career is going as a QB. It's not like Brees wasn't in a pass heavy system, yet he never won a Davey O'Brien award like Tebow or Ware have. If we only recruited NFL prospects at each position, we wouldn't have one Denard Robinson on the team. You can be a superstar in college without having NFL potential.MosherJordannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-49269890439900126412012-03-20T11:44:37.225-04:002012-03-20T11:44:37.225-04:00Mattison has talked multiple times about counting ...Mattison has talked multiple times about counting "loafs." This is just my take, but Brandin Hawthorne was benched for poor effort in the MSU game. Toussaint was pulled out of games at times because he doesn't block with 100% effort. <br /><br />I know Novak doesn't sprint everywhere, but when he's on the court, he gives maximum effort. You know who doesn't give maximum effort, at least on defense? Tim Hardaway, Jr. And that's the reason he's not a great defender.<br /><br />I've never heard a coach tell a kid to jog into the endzone. So yes, jogging into the endzone IS indicative of something more. It could be any number of things (nursing an injury, not being coachable, being out of shape, showing up the other team, etc.), but none of those things is good.*<br /><br />*If a guy's nursing a hamstring injury and jogs into the endzone to prevent himself from re-injuring it, then I'd give him a pass. Somehow I doubt that's often the case.Thunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09708792562446136381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-75276920797129202892012-03-20T11:36:33.568-04:002012-03-20T11:36:33.568-04:00Guys that fail in the NFL are often a product of t...Guys that fail in the NFL are often a product of their college coaches or teammates. You're equating production with ability in a team game. NFL success is a good indicator of ability because it means someone was good in multiple settings (assuming the NFL player also played in college).<br /><br />I guess you think Andre Ware is a better quarterback than Drew Brees?Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-67145475501383429392012-03-20T11:31:39.545-04:002012-03-20T11:31:39.545-04:00It's not a black-and-white issue of you hustle...It's not a black-and-white issue of you hustle or you don't, it's a matter of degree. This may come as a shock, but Novak doesn't sprint towards the coaching staff during timeouts or dive into his bed at night. There are times when extra effort matters (like running out a ground ball) and times when it doesn't. <br /><br />Maybe not running into the end zone is indicative of something more...maybe not. I'd rather a player did it than not, though.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-86018360172889938642012-03-20T07:39:57.235-04:002012-03-20T07:39:57.235-04:00Exactly. Michigan fans turned Novak into a demigo...Exactly. Michigan fans turned Novak into a demigod because of his hustle plays, but then when they see a high school kid jogging into the endzone, they ignore it. Did Novak just turn into a hustler when he got to college? I doubt it. It's not the deciding factor of whether a kid is going to be successful or not, but it's a part of the equation.Thunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09708792562446136381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-66256085157073692122012-03-19T22:40:44.129-04:002012-03-19T22:40:44.129-04:00Lankownia,
NFL success is moot when talking about...Lankownia,<br /><br />NFL success is moot when talking about quality of a college player. Scores of great college players don't go on to have good NFL careers. Ron Dayne ran for over 2000 yards as a freshman. Justin Fargas broke his leg running into a Wisconsin DB his freshman year. That they had comparable NFL careers doesn't mean much. No back has come close to Dayne at Wisconsin. If 7000 yards in a college career doesn't make you exceptional, what on earth does?MosherJordannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-67572667432882147592012-03-19T20:04:38.796-04:002012-03-19T20:04:38.796-04:00I gotta go with Thunder on this one.
The characte...I gotta go with Thunder on this one.<br /><br />The character kid is the one sprinting it in, running out the ground balls or getting on the floor after loose balls. Given the choice, talent being equal, that's the kid you want.Roanmanhttp://justthinking.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-38074588933192886682012-03-19T18:51:47.870-04:002012-03-19T18:51:47.870-04:00MoJo,
You must not remember Michael Bennett, Dayn...MoJo,<br /><br />You must not remember Michael Bennett, Dayne's 5'9 replacement, a small track guy. He rushed for nearly 1,600 yards after Dayne left and looked better in his pro career, making an all-pro game as a rookie. Fargas is a giant in comparison at 6'1 220. Given that Fargas was at least as good of an NFL back as Dayne, I don't see why he couldn't have been just as productive.<br /><br />Every Wisconsin back does well. You can't detach their individual production from the context. While this is true for all players, it's ESPECIALLY true when players in a 'system' get replaced so easily (at least from the outside.) The question is - does that ability translate outside of the system? Wisconsin's had a constant stream of backs produced there but none proved exceptional enough to have great NFL success. I realize that's a gross simplification, but there's not much evidence that these backs were exceptional talents. As far as I know, no wisconsin back has had as much success as Bennett - the smallest and fastest of them all.<br /><br />I don't think Michigan should fall into the idea that RBs must be big to succeed. For every Bo Jackson there's a Barry Sanders, for every Adrian Peterson a Ray Rice. Durability isn't a function of size, either. It's better to dodge tackles than absorb them.<br /><br />I don't know if Norfleet would work in the Wisc system, but I don't see why not. I wouldn't assume he's 'going down on first contact'. Mike Hart didn't.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-20354407170157081642012-03-19T15:16:01.184-04:002012-03-19T15:16:01.184-04:00Thunder, you're absolutely right, I just thoug...Thunder, you're absolutely right, I just thought it might explain why he looks slower in highlights than his reported 40 time would indicate. Might being the operative word.<br /><br />Lankownia, Ball was a finalist for the Heisman, and Dayne won a Heisman. They both have set or tied NCAA records in their roles as backs that won't fall anytime soon. True Wisconsin's system had something to do with that, but it's just wrong to pretend that Justin Fargas could've done what either did if he had just transfered to Wisconsin instead of USC. It's a little like saying that Pat White, D.Rob, or Shaun King were not exceptional, just the product of the Rich Rod spread. Wisconsin's running game can't be centered around guys like Justin Fargas, Dennis Northfleet or Justice Hayes. It needs a guy who's very good at not going down on first contact, and yes, Dayne and Ball are/were both really good at that. Speed is a nice bonus, but getting to the hole with power so you can break past the LB trying to fill the hole and have the durability so that the saftey who's coming down to help develops a flinch reflex before you. With a big OL, heavy use of the TE, big bodied possesion recievers, and big bruising RB/FBs, Michigan does look like we're moving toward the Wisconsin model. MANBALL, Q.E.D. Smith might lack the icing on the cake that is Isaac like speed, but in the system we're building the personel for, he's still cake, IMHO.MosherJordannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-412549367405917032012-03-19T14:57:38.635-04:002012-03-19T14:57:38.635-04:00Green is a little more similar to DeVeon Smith tha...Green is a little more similar to DeVeon Smith than Ty Isaac. Green supposedly has good speed - presumably better than Smith's - but I don't really see him being explosive on film. Green is kind of a north-south runner who's big and powerful. He's big, strong, and fast, but I don't really know if he has that "it" factor. Isaac is a completely different player - shiftier, less powerful, and probably just as fast on the football field.Thunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09708792562446136381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-67588733301583355322012-03-19T14:52:36.191-04:002012-03-19T14:52:36.191-04:00Thanks for your analysis. I enjoy reading about ou...Thanks for your analysis. I enjoy reading about our new recruits.<br /><br />Your recruiting update indicates that, according to Derrick Green, MIchigan is seeking another running back. How would you compare Derrick Green's potential with Ty Issac's? <br />Thanks<br />UncleFredAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-79545747000429199282012-03-19T12:36:13.481-04:002012-03-19T12:36:13.481-04:00I agree with this critique of the TTB rankings and...I agree with this critique of the TTB rankings and assessments. It's pretty flimsy as character evidence.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-31128518846363689572012-03-19T12:34:51.282-04:002012-03-19T12:34:51.282-04:00I don't think Ball and Dayne were exceptional....I don't think Ball and Dayne were exceptional. Wisconsin has a system in which backs produce. They can be big or small, fast or powerful, or just all-around OK. They've run that system for years and everyone knows what is expected. That can't be replicated overnight.<br /><br />Is Michigan trying to become Wisconsin? Maybe, it's not what Borges has done in the past, but obviously he is capable of adapting. Will they have the personnel to do it? Maybe, but conjecture about recruits is of limited usefulness.<br /><br />So, just because a guy could fit in Wisconsin's offense (almost anyone could), doesn't make them a good fit for Michigan...at least yet.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-7694205295745195892012-03-19T12:18:03.213-04:002012-03-19T12:18:03.213-04:00USC recruits 5-star WR almost exclusively. Some a...USC recruits 5-star WR almost exclusively. Some aren't 'burners' but most are very very fast. Rojo was just one example. Their recruits are plenty fast. They also recruit a top 5 QB almost every year - that helps too.<br /><br />I don't have a problem with any specific recruit, I just think you have to recruit more speed than we have been lately for the skill positions. Not necessarily at RB, but I prefer speed to size at WR for sure. RB too though - small guys step up so consistently, especially at the college level. I'd rather take a Norfleet than a Rawls, in general. I don't get the obsession with size - this isn't basketball. And it's not a system thing - as everyone knows, Morris and Hart have been great in Michigan's systems (both pre and post zone-blocking), and the predominantly pro-style NFL seems to have a new short back emerge nearly every season.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-2510141352314178092012-03-19T11:26:19.772-04:002012-03-19T11:26:19.772-04:00I stand corrected about his offer list - that is p...I stand corrected about his offer list - that is pretty good. I don't buy that Iowa would be overlooked by scouts, but it is possible for a guy with less exposure to get undervalued somewhat. Still, his recruiting profile tended much closer to 'possession-receiver' than 'deep speed threat'.Lankownianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-56936494450876443942012-03-19T11:24:06.817-04:002012-03-19T11:24:06.817-04:00I don't know...Rawls is listed at 5'10&quo...I don't know...Rawls is listed at 5'10", 219 lbs. That's decent sized, and I'm assuming he'll be another 5-10 pounds heavier this year.Thunderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09708792562446136381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2440694009017367434.post-6765404971883394112012-03-19T11:18:46.969-04:002012-03-19T11:18:46.969-04:00Good point. There are some other options in Hopki...Good point. There are some other options in Hopkins and Houma. Forget Shallman - his highlights are 6 yard carries. And I was shocked to see how small Rawls looked in the fall - noticeably smaller than Troussaint and not particularly thick. Anyway, I do think Smith will be a more dangerous runner than Hopkins or Houma but we'll see.Painter Smurfnoreply@blogger.com