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HIGH SCHOOL
Hinton always had the spotlight on him, considering he's the son of former 1st round NFL draft pick Chris Hinton. He attended Norcross (GA) Greater Atlanta Christian and was a 5-star, the #4 defensive tackle, and #31 overall in the class of 2019. Originally rated as a strongside end - which confused me at the time - he eventually ended up ranked as a DT, where he finished up behind Zacch Pickens (South Carolina), DeMarvin Leal (Texas A&M), and Travon Walker (Georgia); Pickens is returning to South Carolina, while Leal and Walker joined Hinton in declaring for the draft after three years. Here's my original commitment post (LINK) and a link to the final TTB Ratings for 2019, where I gave him a 90 (LINK)
Hit the jump for more.
COLLEGE
Hinton wasn't good as a true freshman (10 tackles, 0.5 tackles for loss). He was solid during the shortened 2020 season (13 tackles, 2 TFL, 1 sack, 2 PBU). And he really improved in his final season in Ann Arbor (33 tackles, 1.5 TFL, 1 sack, 2 PBU, 1 FF). That's the trajectory one expects from a defensive tackle, and truthfully, I don't really expect tackles to hit their peak until year four or year five. There's a lot of technique and strength involved, and players also have to get used to playing with technique and strength for four quarters.
CAREER STATISTICS
56 tackles, 4 tackles for loss, 2 sacks, 4 pass breakups, 1 forced fumble
AWARDS
Honorable Mention All-Big Ten (2021)
SUMMARY
Hinton turned into a solid player, but he was never extraordinary. He showed some flashes late in his freshman year, and unfortunately, the entire defense was terrible in 2020. I had some fears in 2020 that Hinton would leave Michigan prior to reaching his potential, and that seems to be the case. Once he had even a decent season, he was ready to hit the road and try to get paid. It seemed that Michigan didn't ask its defensive tackles to do much in 2021 since they had such a good pass rush coming off the edges from Aidan Hutchinson and David Ojabo. Rather than playing many games with those interior guys, Michigan largely seemed to just ask them to hold their ground, maintain their rush lanes, and lane Hutchinson/Ojabo eat up the offensive tackles. It was the right move for the defensive structure as a whole, but it didn't help the tackles shine much. Then, of course, I also have questions about the effectiveness of (since departed) defensive line coach Shaun Nua. I have no doubt that turncoat former DL coach Greg Mattison would have turned Hinton into a beast.
I WILL REMEMBER HIM FOR . . .
. . . not reaching his potential in a Michigan uniform. I sound like an old fogey, I'm sure, but I remember a time when college players would stay in college until they were actually good. Nowadays these young whippersnappers just stay in college until they broach the edges of their potential, and then they think they're ready for the NFL. (I'm being somewhat facetious; plenty stay until they're good.) Regardless, when you land a 5-star defensive tackle, you expect more than 4 career tackles for loss, 2 career sacks, and an honorable mention all-conference selection.
PROJECTION
Hinton measured in at the Combine at 6'3 5'8" and 305 lbs. He ran a 5.28 forty, had a 31.5" vertical jump, and broad jumped 8'10". He has a chance to improve those numbers at Michigan's pro day and add to them by doing the rest of the workout, but there's little reason to believe that he will suddenly wow scouts with his athleticism. He's a guy who has to win with technique, consistency, and motor, and he's just not where he needs to be right now. I think he will probably be somewhere around a 6th round pick, and he's a guy who might be a rotational player down the road. I don't see him being a Pro Bowler or even a consistent NFL starter.
You do kind of song like an old fogey here. Worth taking a step back and assessing things more objectively. A player starts on a highly successful team, gets all conference honors, and gets drafted by the NFL. That's success right?
ReplyDeleteIt's about recruiting rankings and expectations, you might be saying. OK - well in that case, we should be EXPECTING these highly ranked players to be gone in 3 years. As noted, the guys ranked around him are going pro too. This is what happens with blue chip recruits. But only if things go well like they did with Hinton. If they stay 4 or 5 years, that probably means things are not going that well.
You can look through the last 5 classes or whatever of Michigan recruits and see where top 100 guys end up. Most are gone in 3 years, either to the NFL or transfer. Alabama and Ohio State know the drill. We do too. You don't even have to be a highly ranked recruit to do it. All you need is one good year.
If you see most every highly rated kid who goes pro after 3 years as "failing to reach their potential" that seems like more an issue with expectations than anything else. This program could sure use more failures like Jabril Peppers, Rashan Gary, DPJ, Dax Hill, and Chris Hinton if you ask me. No coincidence that our best teams tend to have a couple of these guys.
I'll be OK with the Cam McGrones, Ambry Thomas' Jalen Mayfields and David Ojabos too. Recruiting rankings don't matter once you're in college. And your success coming year 5, year 4, or year 3 shouldn't matter either.
I'm all for kids staying 4 or 5 years, but the best programs are filled with guys who are 3 and out. If you want elite recruits - and you do - that's what it is. It's great for recruiting. Embrace it as a sign of successful program.
I have no problem with kids leaving after three years. That's not the issue. My thing is that 5-star recruits should give you at least one season of "wow" performance before departing. Those guys are considered first round pick type of material, and if you were drafting a first round (32 players) from the Big Ten alone, Hinton probably wouldn't be a choice.
DeleteThere were 54 Big Ten players invited to the NFL Combine. So it's feasible that Hinton might not even be one of the top 32 drafted from the conference. Last year 44 players were drafted from the Big Ten.
There were 42 players chosen for All-Big Ten 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team in 2021, and Hinton wasn't one of them.
So no, I don't think he played like a 5-star player.
My counterargument is that most top 50 recruits are in fact NOT first round picks. Most will never give you a wow season. So you're expecting them to do better than what they've done historically.
DeleteThis means you will be disappointed by most top 50 recruits. And that's exactly what is happening.
With this mentality, it's better to grab a 3 star recruit who will not be saddled with ahistorical expectations. That will be more pleasing to a fan with this philosophy.
The only downside is it means losing more games and not competing at an elite level. There might be an inherent contradiction in that - or there might not. Some people I think would rather root for a program that overachieves with 3-star recruits. Nothing wrong with siding with an underdog, but that's just not what Michigan football has been.
Here's a list of the 10 previous recruits that ranked the same as Hinton (#31 overall in the composite).
DeleteQuay Walker (OLB Georgia) - 4 year player, did not make all conference. considered a sure NFL draft pick but not a 1st rounder.
Joseph Lewis (WR USC) - BUST. caught 4 passes career
Landon Dickerson (OT FSU) - grad transfer to Alabama, All American, 2nd Round pick
Damien Harris (RB Alabama) - 4 year player, 2nd team all conference, 3rd round pick
Malik McDowell (DL MSU) - 3 year player, 2nd team all conference, 2nd round pick
A'Shawn Robinson (DL Alabama) - 3 year player, All American, 2nd round NFL
Stephon Tuitt (DL Notre Dame) - 3 year player, All American, 2nd round NFL pick
Phillip Sims (QB Alabama) - BUST, 1,400 career yards in D1, undrafted
Tahj Boyd (QB Clemson) - 4 year player, All American, 6th round pick
Matt Patchan (OT Florida) - transfer to Boston College, 5 year player, all conference ACC, undrafted
Conclusion:
None of the guys rated were Hinton rated ended up being 1st round picks.
Most end up all conference to some degree.
Most end up getting drafted.
The probability of being all american is about equal to the probability of being a bust. (I bet that wouldn't be true at 30 or 32, but 31 seemed to have a lot of HITs).
Conclusion: similar to Rashan Gary, Hinton is about in the middle of what you'd expect for a guy of his ranking based on recent history. Probably a bit below average but clearly closer to the middle than the bottom. Had he stayed for year 4 his college production would almost certainly have exceeded the median. His draft stock would probably not have ever reached the 1st round, given the scout concerns about lack of high end athleticism.
I'll admit there were more standout linemen at this spot than I expected. Still - the conclusion holds up. If you were expecting a WOW year from a 1st round pick, your expectations are overinflated.
I know it's pretty crazy for me to think that a 5-star should meet the expectations of the site(s) that define what a 5-star means:
DeleteThe top 32 players in the country to mirror the 32 first-round picks in the NFL Draft. These are 32 players that we believe are the most likely to be drafted in the first round from each recruiting class. The full list of 32 with five-star ratings typically isn’t complete until the final ranking. Any player with a rating of more than 100 is considered a “franchise player” and one that does not come around in every recruiting class.
I think we're debating different points again (shocker). I don't see anyone claiming 'every 5star should be elite'
DeleteInstead, it is a reasonable expectation to forecast greater career stats, moments, and accolades. Not just from an unreasonable fanatic, but the coaches. The players & their families too
This is not limited to HS ratings, but pro drafts as well. The earlier a round player X is taken, the higher expectations from fan, coach and player/family ... everyone knows how common busts occur, but the expectation exists, and is shared by most
Your expectations ignore reality. As demonstrated by history.
Delete@Thunder
What you posted doesn't support your argument. No one is arguing that these blue chippers aren't the "most likely" to be drafted in R1.
People who buy a 100 lottery tickets are most likely to win the lottery. But since there's thousands of other people buying 1 each, they probably still won't. It's more likely someone who buys 1 wins.
@JE
What you posted doesn't support your argument.
Nobody is arguing expectations shouldn't be higher for higher rated players.
Thunder said "5-star recruits should give you at least one season of "wow" which is the same thing as "every 5-star should be elite".
If you think Hinton's parents are disappointed like Thunder is - you're wrong. Because they'd tell him to stay in school and he'd probably listen.
https://twitter.com/ChrisHint75/status/1486431381718712321
NIL is peanuts compared to what a successful NFL player earns in his prime free agent years.
DeleteNIL doesn't change the fact that Aaron Donald averaged making $2M a year on his rookie contract and over $20M a year on his second contract. Coming back to college for a 4th year cost him $18M in 2017 alone. That's the difference.
But hey he got to be an All American instead of just an all conference player (as he was a junior) and enjoy a 7-6 season at Pitt. I bet no surly Pitt fans think of him as a disappointment. I'm not saying that's nothing but I am saying $18M is a lot of money to pay for that glory. Hutchinson made the same choice.
But that's Aaron Donald you might say, he's different. OK let's look at another 3-year "disappointment". Rashan Gary is getting $4M a year now but will hit free agency in 2024. The Packers will have an $11M option on him in 2023 (that they will certainly exercise). If he had stayed at Michigan another year he would have been paid about $7M less in 2023, not to mention the $3M not earned in 2019. So coming back to school would have cost Gary at least $10M, even BEFORE he hits free agency. The total will probably grow substantially if you assume he signs a contract north of $10M/year when he is a free agent. But at least Thunder wouldn't see him as a disappointment! He'll just have to warm himself with those 10 million one dollar bills as he stays up in the cold Wisconsin night worrying about it.
...
We can keep going with all these guys. The bottom line is this - the sooner you hit free agency the sooner you can cash in. You have to be good enough, and most aren't, but if you are a starting caliber NFL player in free agency you get paid far more than you do on a rookie contract. Your career ends when it ends - that part doesn't change, but you have control about what year you will hit free agency by deciding when you enter the draft.
I'm confused by the logic here. If Aidan Hutchinson left after 2020, he wouldn't be in the running to be a top-3 pick. He waited around one extra year and got better, earned more accolades, piled up more stats, etc. That means wherever Hutchinson gets drafted, he's bound to be a starter in year one and get a chance to prove himself, put up stats, make Pro Bowls, etc. that will improve his leverage going into a second contract.
DeleteIf you leave early without much to show for yourself and get taken in the 5th or 6th round, you go into camp likely as a backup option or a guy who needs help to make a roster. And if you're a backup/fringe NFL player - or relegated to trying to make the NFL via playing in the USFL/AAF/XFL - then the second NFL contract is practically moot.
Playing your way into the 1st/2nd round/3rd round practically ensures a roster spot and some capital put into your success.
Lank, how am I not supporting my point? We are talking different thoughts:
Delete- Hinton (and other 5stars) have extremely high hopes. From fans, coaches, and themselves/their family
- You make a leap in reasoning that if someone doesn't reach lofty goals, they are a disappointment. No one said this, except you
- as I say, we are simply talking past ea other
That tweet says nothing of player/parent expectations coming out of HS, or his production/accolades in college. They're thanking JH for caring for their son for three years
I guess this goes back to playing, coaching or having kids who compete. If you've never been a part of it, it's nearly impossible to comprehend that high expectations are a good thing, and missing that high mark does not mean disappointment or failure
@Thunder
DeleteHutchinson was already projected to be a first round pick. By your logic, he was already in line for all that stuff you mentioned. He put up more stats in college and got more accolades, no doubt about that, but he also shortened his NFL career by one year and, most crucially from a financial perspective, lost one year of a free agent contract in his prime, where he'll instead be paid at rookie scale.
@Thunder
DeleteThe bigger issue is that you're conflating a bunch of different things here. Namely - how talented somebody is, how well they performed in college, how high they are drafted, how ready they are to start, how well they do in the NFL in their prime. They are all correlated but there are countless examples of guys who check some boxes and not others. Just one example was already mentioned...
Rashan Gary, according to you, was a disappointment in college and left early. Yet, he was a first round pick. He didn't start right away. He developed as a backup, and got paid millions to do it. Now that he is coming into his own as a starter, he will likely be rewarded with a huge 8-figure contract.
Hutchinson and Gary had nearly identical careers through 3 years. Gary left and will get at least $10M more for it. Hutchinson stayed and sacrificed probably even more than that - but was rewarded with accolades and a successful, rewarding, and fun college season. He paid a whole lot of $$$ for that experience. I doubt he regrets it, but I think he and his Dad know the money he gave up.
That said, I will acknowledge that if you are a top 5 pick, and you moved up from say 20s to top 5, that is one exception where the money is somewhat made up for. The difference in contract between the 3rd pick and the 13th pick is bigger than the difference between the 13th pick and the 130th pick. So moving up from 20 to 3 is a far bigger deal than moving up from 180 to 20.
If you are talking about a fringe NFL prospect, it's a different deal. But Hinton is going to be that no matter what. He can't come back to college and be a top 5 pick. That's a fantasy. He's already done the combine and his athletic limitations are well documented by scouts. He's closer to Brad Hawkins than Jabril Peppers. Another year, hell 2 more years, might get up to round 3 or 4 perhaps in a best case scenario. But if you believe he has that kind of talent hiding inside him, just waiting to come out, then there are still 2 different paths.
1. Return to college for year 4. Play like an all conference DT. Move your draft grade up from Round 6 to Round 4. Earn $4.5 M on your first contract instead of $3.5M on your first contract. Start right away in 2023 but don't become a free agent until 2028.
2. Go pro in year 3. Get drafted in year 6. Spend a year as a backup. Become a starter in 2023 (year 2). Hit free agency in 2027. Earn $5, $10, maybe $20M more in 2027 than in Scenario 1.
If your argument is that you are a fringe guy and going to fail because you don't have enough talent. Then yeah, going back to college is a good idea. If the only contract you'll ever get is the rookie contract you should absolutely try to maximize that. But then you're betting against your own success.
The list of 4 year guys who get cut is a lot longer than the list of 3 year guys who get cut. Arguing that this helps your career is somewhere between dubious and speculative.
If you think every projected 5th or 6th round pick should maximize their college career for as long as possible, well that logic should go for Hassan Haskins and Josh Ross too.
There is no doubt about what is happening here - these guys believe in themselves and believe they can be successful in the NFL. They are betting on themselves. Some will be wrong - I haven't heard anyone say they expect a long NFL career from Vincent Gray - but others will prove the doubters wrong. Ambry Thomas seems to be doing fine.
https://touch-the-banner.com/devin-funchess-declared-for-nfl-draf/
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/san-francisco-49ers/devin-funchess-16764/cash-earnings/
Funchess is another example. If he had come back to college he would still have been on a rookie contract in 2019. Instead he earned $10M, more than he earned in the rest of his career COMBINED, in that one season.
@JE
DeleteI see you're back to imaginary insults because you can't hack the debate.
What you call "talking past each other" is really you not understanding the conversation and making asinine and irrelevant points.
Thunder is saying he had high goals for Hinton. He says he did not meet expectations (i.e., is a disappointment). Keep up.
Another way you can try to keep up is to understand that a fan with ZERO relationship to a player is completely different than being a coach or a parent. A fan's setting high goals for a player don't drive that player to do better. Me saying Dante Moore should win 4 Hesimans - not helpful to him in any way at all. If you had any success in life you'd know the difference between being a fan and being a coach.
All that kind of nonsense (Thunder expecting Hinton to be an all american or me expecting Moore to win Heismans) does is drive the fans who participate in it to be disappointed. When unreasonable, ahistorical expectations are not met that begets negativity without any benefit.
Making stuff up again
DeleteNobody insulated you. If disagreement triggers you, then message boards are not the ideal hang out
Chill
It's funny you keep insisting I am upset and "triggered". Same way you insist I've never competed. You can't handle an honest debate so you make up an alternative reality. It's not anything new you just try to shift the conversation but while doing it you show your empty hand.
DeleteI'm not insisting anything. In fact, as soon as you starting accusing me of insulting you, I tried clarifying. Then I apologized
DeleteMy points on expectations come from the perspective of a player, a coach, and the parent of players. It's relevant to the discussion, but you take disagreement as an act of aggression
Relax. I'm fine with your opinion, even if a disagree. It's that simple
LOL. My expectations come from the perspective of a player, coach, and parent. The difference is that I know none of those roles apply to Michigan football.
DeleteSince we're handing out apologies I'll say that I'm sorry you can't follow this conversation and have to resort to referencing irrelevant information.
I'm fine with your disagreement - at this point I only worry if you agree with me.
They apply to athletics, competition, and expectations ... all relevant to MICHIGAN football and this conversation
DeleteNevermind. You'll never understand
Oh the irony from someone who doesn't understand that their expectations are IRRELEVANT to Michigan football.
DeleteAgain, they apply to athletics, competition, and expectations ... all relevant to MICHIGAN football and this conversation
DeleteAnd we're talking about the player's expectations. The coaches expectations. The expectations of families. But again, you are incapable of relating
As for fan expectations, you're right. They have no impact on the team, but sure do live in your head!
We're actually NOT talking about coaches, families, or player expectations. You are because you're confusing FAN expectations with these things. No one ever talked about coaches, family, or player expectations except you.
DeleteThunder - a fan - and you - a fan - are disappointed. You are not coaches, players, or families for Michigan football. So, I'm telling you why your disappointment is misguided, as the fans you are. You're telling me why it's a good for coaches, families, and players to set high expectations for themselves. Which is beside the point and a separate topic.
Keep up.
That's the funny part. I even agree with you on the tangential topic that isn't part of the discussion. Setting high goals for yourself and pushing those who you lead or mentor (as a coach, parent, manager) are things I believe in and live by. But you're so busy trying to make up insults and argue against fake takes it doesn't matter that we agree on the point.
DeleteThe ironic thing here is that the player (Hinton) continues to have high expectations for himself while the disappointed fan (Thunder) does not.
"I don't see him being a Pro Bowler or even a consistent NFL starter"
I'm going to go ahead and bet Hinton sees himself as an NFL starter and that's why he's going pro. He's not disappointed in his college career one bit. Nor are his parents. Nor are his coaches. The only people who are disappointed are fans who don't get it and want to think their expectations matter to anybody but themselves.
It's not logical at all, which is what I'm trying to point out with historical facts like - most top 50 recruits go pro after 3 years and most top 50 recruits are not all americans.
The disappointment is an emotional response from a selfish perspective of wanting the guy to stay at Michigan. And I understand that because I feel it too. But I can put myself in the PLAYERS perspective. Think like a PARENT. Understand like a COACH.
If you do these things you'll understand the difference between a fan on the sideline and someone who is directly involved. You'll understand the difference between being disappointed by expectations and being proud of accomplishments even if not every goal is met.
*Most top 50 recruits go pro after 3 years (IF THEY CAN).
DeleteMost cannot because they are not good enough to have the NFL's interest. Hinton is and does.
The word "disappointed" (or variations) comes up 17 times on this thread, and all but three are from you. The three are from the last time I pointed out that you're just making up an argument
DeleteAll those words, and you can't make a point. Players, coaches families and fans all have expectations, and that's okay. You cannot handle a differing opinion, dwell on it, and come back time & again, replying to every post, not realizing that for the rest of the board you're an object of ridicule
This fan's expectations are offbase.
DeleteThat's a very simple point that you continue to not understand and dodge as you try to argue with every post. I'm arguing back and can handle it fine.
Thunder expects a WOW year from each blue chipper even though most blue chippers do not produce a WOW year.
Now you pretend I'm making up that Thunder is disappointed in Hinton even though he said he "expected more" and will remember him for "not reaching his potential".
This is a dodge, and it's typical. You can't handle the debate so you resort to personal attacks, tangents, and irrelevant observations. For example, the fact that you keep bringing up the perspectives players, coaches, and parents, instead of talking about the perspectives of fans. This should tell you who is handling this and who isn't. I am engaging the points you are making. But they are tangential and unrelated to the topic. I try to walk you back to the point, but you either can't or won't do it.
As always, your attempted criticism's tell you more about you than me. You can't handle it.
What criticism? Where is the personal attack (besides you calling guys "dumb")? It's in your head Lank
DeleteIn the same post you say I'm dodging, you're also saying I argue your every point
"You can't make a point. "
Delete"You cannot handle a differing opinion."
Try to keep up or at least read your own last post. We've been through that before when you couldn't remember what you wrote then welched on the bet. Maybe the problem with all your dumb takes is you can't remember them and thus never learn.
I get what thunder is saying, but I think the problem lies in our depth
ReplyDeleteIf Hinton were on that 2016 DL - with that depth (and GMatt) - we might be having a different discussion. I thought his best game was the B1G title game (a huge stage), where he had his way with a very good Iowa OL
That said, looking at his combine numbers isn't inspiring. 6th Round sounds right, and would fall close to Donovan Warren territory of "should have stayed"
So would it have been better if he had sat on the bench for 2 years before becoming an all conference starter on a near elite defense? I think not but I suspect others would perceive him differently if he played out his eligibility and "earned it".
DeleteThe go early vs stay thing tends to ignore that there's no guarantees his draft stock would have improved. Meanwhile he shaved a year off his pro career earnings.
"Meanwhile he shaved a year off his pro career earnings" doesn't mean what it used to mean now that NIL is legal.
DeleteOf course there's no guarantees. But the OP addresses technique issues, which can and do improve for DTs in their 4th & 5th years
Delete@JE
DeleteTechnique issues can also improve in 1st and 2nd years in the NFL, while getting paid millions of dollars. More likely to improve in fact, with superior coaching and no need to waste 20-30 hours a week playing school.
@Thunder
NIL response posted above. NIL can perhaps match rookie wages (optimistically) but do not come anywhere close to the difference in salary in free agency. 1 year later in the draft = 1 year later to free agency = 1 more year of playing at a discount under a rookie contract = 1 year less of peak earnings
I addressed that above. It's tough to get that second contract if you don't do enough in college to make a team want to keep you around through a first contract.
DeleteYou can cut a 6th rounder pretty easily and nobody will notice. It's tougher to do that with a 2nd rounder.
You are correct Lank. Technique can improve while earning 6th round paychecks. No dispute there, which is why I am not blaming this young Michigan man
DeleteBut technique can improve even more during a 4th/5th year, while playing LIVE snaps at a Power5 program, than it can on an NFL bench (or on waivers). Another year would also give Hinton time to focus on some of those combine numbers. Pro scouts would have more film, more production/accolades to consider, and ideally improved showing at some of these combine events
There's no sure way to tell which route is the best, as results are all over the place. But as an M fan, I (greedily) wanted CH back. As a fan of the game, I lean toward live reps and more time for a guy lacking technique and raw measurables. Just my opinion though
Go Blue
@JE
DeleteYou say he's going to focus on combine numbers and then you say he's going to focus on improving through live snaps. Which is it? Is he becoming a better player or putting on a show to get drafted higher. The combine is about your potential. Games are about production. No one is disputing that he people can get drafted higher if they stay in college longer. None of that has anything to do with the big payoff of NFL free agency.
You are right that the best way for a player to improve is a matter of opinion. In my opinion practice is where most development occurs. And who you compete against in practice makes a ton of difference. Iron sharpens iron.
For all the imaginary shade you like to throw around because you used to help out as an assistant on your kids high school team, you should at least understand the value of competition. But since you claim to have been a bully as a kid, it adds up that you wouldn't get it - you see more value in dominating weaker competition. You think people like Joe Milton should run away to where they can dominate based on natural talent rather than grind it out, develop outside the spotlight, and get better from those who are better than they are. The type of dude who'd rather live in a small town than a big city and will make up all kinds of lies to themselves about why.
Rashan Gary played less than 25% of defensive snaps his rookie year. Last year he played over 60%. David Ojabo had 1 tackle his first two years and then became an all american. You don't have to play a ton to develop a ton.
OmG. An athlete can improve production/accolades and bump up combine numbers - it's not one or the other. Again, if you've never been active & competitive, it's harder to grasp
Delete*I don't consider you weaker competition. If that's your takeaway, I apologize
@JE
DeleteI don't consider you competition at all.
Of course not. I'm bigger, stronger and faster
DeleteAnd, despite your best efforts, I'm living in your head again, rent free
Well, if your attempts to boast on this site are true you're definitely not bigger than me. Stronger, I don't know - maybe you should tell me what you can bench. LOL. Faster? Well it took you two weeks to get in this message so I doubt that too.
DeleteOfer again.
@Thunder.
ReplyDeleteWhat you did or didn't do in college has ZERO to do with your second contract. ZERO. What matters for the second contract is what you did in the NFL.
This is the same mistake you make in recruiting rankings. Once you get to college they are immediately irrelevant. Your talent still matters - but the past perception of it (by others) does not.
External perceptions do not change fortunes. It's the same mistake people make when they root for adjustments in recruiting rankings - it's purely entertainment. If anything a lower ranking is more likely to change outcomes than a higher ranking - kid might get motivated by it.
When it comes to stars and draft position remember: correlation is not causation.
Sorry, Lank, but you're wrong. You're even wronger about this than you might be about recruiting rankings.
DeleteA 1st or 2nd round pick gets more opportunities to be successful in the NFL than a 6th or 7th round pick. Coaches and GMs are contractually obligated to keep a guy on the team and give him chances. If your 1st and 2nd round picks sit on the bench and never get on the field, the fans and owners are going to be upset, and you're going to get fired.
If the Lions draft a 1st round DT and a 7th round DT who do the exact same things in camp - they're equally strong, quick, smart, tough, etc. - the 1st round guy is getting on the field. They're not going to pay 1st round money to a guy who's sitting on the bench.
So that 1st round guy racks up the stats, gets highlights put on film, gets accolades, etc. that he can then use as negotiating tactics for a second contract while the 7th round guy only plays backup snaps, does not get votes for the Pro Bowl, etc. Teams keep saying "Oh, that 1st rounder must have talent and maybe we can harness it," but they don't say it about the 7th rounder.
I'm just going to use Kurt Warner as an example, although he's an exception in a lot of ways and doesn't even fit this narrative that well. But I think it's relevant. He didn't get drafted and somewhat lucked into his opportunity to start for the Rams when Trent Green got hurt. He very well could have been out of the NFL (again) if Green stayed healthy, even though he was talented enough to take two different teams to the Super Bowl.
Meanwhile, Kyle Boller was a 1st round pick and sucked every year. Yet somehow he stayed in the NFL through 2012 with 48 career touchdowns and 54 interceptions and a QB rating of 69. Brooks Bollinger was a 6th round pick the same year with 9 TD, 9 INT, and a QB rating of 74 in the NFL. He clearly wanted to keep playing football because he played QB for the Florida Tuskers in 2009-2010, but no NFL team gave him a chance after the Lions cut him in 2009.
It's almost like it's better to be a high pick than a low pick.
@Thunder
DeleteIt's better to be a high pick than a low pick.
It's better to get paid more money than less.
It's better to be successful than not successful.
All of this is obvious and no one is arguing otherwise.
Boller is better than Bollinger. He was better in college and better in the NFL. I have no idea what point you are trying to make here. The list of 1st round picks who are better than 6th round picks is long. If Bollinger had been drafted in Round 1 and Boller in Round 6 that wouldn't have changed the facts. Is that what you are saying? Just like being drafted in Round 6 didn't stop Tom Brady from being better than whoever was drafted in Round 1 that year.
The Seahawks just traded their franchise QB and released their "iconic" LB so it's a weird time to argue that NFL teams make decisions based on pressure from fans.
I agree higher draft picks get more patience than lower draft picks but that has nothing to do with free agent contracts in year 5 or 6. By that point the NFL will have sorted things out. Warner is an example of that - he substantiates my point, not yours.
If the Lions draft a 1st round pick and a 7th round pick and they both do exactly the same, they will get the exact same contract in year 6. That's what your short-term thinking ignores. The goal isn't to get drafted as high as you can it's to have a successful CAREER as possible.
So back to the point. If you're a guy who has enough talent to be an NFL starter, and you believe that is what you will be, coming back to college to move up from 6th round to 1st round but giving up a year of earnings will cost you millions of dollars. If you think you secretly suck and your rookie contract is the only one you'll ever get and you think you can trick the NFL into drafting you in the 1st round (like Taco Charlton?), then yes, by all means, you should go back to college and do that.
It boils down to this - Betting on yourself or betting against yourself. Hinton is betting on himself.
Look, I wanted Hinton to come back too, that would be good for Michigan. I really don't care much about the NFL. But that's me, not him, and his choice not mine. He had about as good of a team year as he could have in college. He proved himself to be a player worthy of the NFL. Even IF he is able to incrementally move up his draft stock, that pales into comparison to the money he could be losing if he has a successful NFL career.
DeleteEven if you play well, coming back to chase draft stock doesn't necessarily improve your chances of NFL success, as we saw with Jake Butt, Shea Patterson, and Mike Danna. Marginal NFL prospects are still going to be marginal NFL prospects. Ambry Thomas, Jalen Mayfield, and Nico Collins knew the score. So does Hinton.
Aidan Hutchinson knew the score, too. He knew that if he left after 2020, he would have been somewhere lower than a 1st round pick.
DeleteHe came back and played his way into being a potential #1 overall pick.
And sorry, but if a 1st round pick gets on the field and a 7th round pick doesn't, they're not getting the same second contract.
Was Boller better than Bollinger? Because the stats don't back it up. All the stats really show is that Boller played more.
@Thunder
DeleteThis is false. Hutchinson was project to go in Round 1.
But let's pretend it's true and he was going to be a late round pick instead.
You're telling me the guy who showed up on the field against WMU was going to get cut from NFL camp? No - he wasn't. That's the exact same guy that is a potential #1 pick. The only thing that changed was perception. NOT performance.
Hutchinson would have hit his second contract one year earlier.
It's especially disingenuous to argue this right now when you see all the UDFAs getting huge NFL contracts this last week.
I'm going to wrap up my part of the discussion with this:
DeleteGetting drafted higher is generally better than getting drafted lower. If you want to continue arguing that lower draft picks and undrafted free agents have a better chance of landing huge second contracts, have at it. I'm going to move on to other things now.
This Bollinger thing continues to be a very strange angle on this argument. You're talking about 2 QBs that got to start in the NFL by their second year despite getting drafted in very different places. They both got a shot. This supports MY side of the argument! It counters yours.
DeleteThe difference in success isn't where they got drafted but that over their multi-year careers across multiple teams one guy proved himself to be better. The stats back up that Boller was better than Bollinger. Boller was 20-27 as a starter in the NFL. Bollinger was 2-8. Boller threw for 9000 yards and almost 50 TDs. Bollinger threw for 2000 yards and 9 TDs.
These stats speak to opportunities earned over many years with many teams. Opportunities like this are earned based on ability and winning multiple competitions. You don't get to keep coming back year after year if you suck.
Boller earned more opportunity than Bollinger proves that he is better. You're parsing small differences in stats with different denominators obtained in different contexts while ignoring the order of magnitude differences in production. Forest for the trees.
Bollinger was good enough to get REPEATED opportunities in NFL camps, like Boller. He got signed by 4 different teams and played for 3 of them. Boller just played a bit longer and earned more opportunities and produced more with them.
I can understand your perspective for maybe the 1st or 2nd year guy but after that - do you think the 2nd, 3rd and 4th teams are still factoring in the draft position in the contracts they offer these guys? Why would they?
I think a fundamental issue is your tendency to treat opportunities as random (up to the whims of some know-nothing coaches) and then these highly variable and context-dependent stats as definitive regardless of sample size. It's exactly the opposite. Opportunities are earned and short-term production is random (you can see this in year to year variance and things like Fitz Toussaint's declining YPC).
Bollinger/Boller is similar to Isaac/Smith. The guy who earned the opportunity earned it because he was better. Multiple teams reached this conclusion. Entire leagues reached this conclusion. These small differences in cherry-picked stats don't override the big picture.
Here's a stat:
DeleteNumber of times I've argued "lower draft picks and undrafted free agents have a better chance of landing huge second contracts" = 0
Wait, so you're saying the guy who got drafted to a better franchise - one of the top few franchises over the past 20-ish years - had a better record? And the guy who got drafted to the New York Jets had a worse record?
DeleteShocking.
You're saying that what matters is the franchise and not draft round? Glad we cleared this up.
DeleteI'll stick to my original point, the NFL will sort out who can play regardless of draft position. By the time the rookie contract is done it makes zero difference where you were drafted, and that's when the big money comes to those that are good enough. If you can't hack it, stay in school. If you can, the sooner you get to the NFL the better.
I'm saying 1st round talent will give you more chances than later round talent, even if the 1st round talent objectively plays worse. This is why your "career earnings" and "second contract" argument doesn't make sense.
DeleteBoller got drafted in the 1st round to a team that had probably the best supporting cast for a 1st round NFL QB in history: Jamal Lewis, Todd Heap, Jonathan Ogden, Terrell Suggs, Ray Lewis, Ed Reed, etc. He still put up worse efficiency stats than Bollinger, who played for up-and-down franchises like the Jets, Vikings, and Cowboys.
Oh the irony. Just a few months ago, this guy was arguing that "luck" mattered over preparation & hard work
Delete"I think a fundamental issue is your tendency to treat opportunities as random (up to the whims of some know-nothing coaches) and then these highly variable and context-dependent stats as definitive regardless of sample size. It's exactly the opposite"
This is neither what I argued nor is it ironic. Try to follow. Or maybe just "relax" in the shallow end if you can't swim.
DeleteLook, I'm not insulting you, so I want to head off that accusation right away. But the stance you take flips. Even here. I'm not the only one to point it out, so perhaps some introspection is appropriate
Delete@Thunder
DeleteWe're in agreement on this: "1st round talent will give you more chances than later round talent".
So the pertinent question is this:
Do you think coming back another year changes your talent level?
Not readiness, not college fame or glory, not accolades, not even certainty of immediate production but... your actual talent level that determines your production at say 28 years old or whatever?
If not, if talent is what it is, and guys like Rashan Gary and Hutchinson have it regardless of production in college, then my point about contracts is just a basic fact. Making whatever you are going to make at age 26 changes dramatically if you are on a rookie contract or if you are a free agent. This is clear in every first time free agent who receives a massive increase in pay once they're off the rookie deal. So if you go pro when you are 20 that happens at age 25 and if you go pro at 22 it happens at age 27, and the difference is 2 years. 2 years when you are at your peak performance and peak earning potential. Those 2 years you are either paid at what the market says you are worth or capped dramatically by rookie contract terms agreed to 5 years earlier.
@JE
There is no flip in stance here. You are welcome to tell me where I'm inconsistent. I'll acknowledge it or clarify or further explain. You know that. No insult here either - but your MO is to claim things without backing it up.
Like this. That quote does not remotely say "luck" matters over hard work. It is about YPC being variable depending on context - which is obvious to anyone watching football. Blake Corum doesn't run for 2 yards one play and 40 yards the next play because of preparation or hard work - he does it because of the play call, defense reaction, execution in blocking, etc. Fitz Toussaint's YPC didn't go down every season form 2010 to 2013 because he stopped working, it's because the offense as a whole went downhill due to poor coaching and failure to replace talent at WR and OL.
@ Lank 6:20 p.m.
DeleteIf David Ojabo left after 2020, he wouldn't have been drafted.
Now that Ojabo left after 2021, he would have been a 1st round pick (prior to the Achilles injury).
Was he more talented in 2021 than 2020? I guess that could be argued. Regardless, he needed that extra year to show what he could do. We both know he wouldn't have been a 1st round pick in the 2021 draft.
If Joe Burrow left after 2018, he wouldn't have been the #1 pick.
He stuck around for 2019 and became a superstar.
Nobody is saying players who aren't getting drafted should go pro. Ojabo wasn't even eligible after 2020.
DeleteI'm glad you brought up Burrow because he illustrates the tradeoff pretty well.
DeleteBurrows choice was this. Go pro and be a 5th round pick in 2019 or return and (potentially) be a 1st round pick in 2020. So he followed your line of thinking that the latter is better than the former. And It Worked!
But financially, even with all of Burrow's college dreams coming true, he still lost a ton of money.
We can look at other recent examples to illustrate how a 1st round pick one year later is not financially better off than a mid round pick one year later.
Let's look at a 4th round pick in 2016 and compare their earning to a 1st round pick in 2017.
Dak Prescott (4th rounder in 2016) has earned $111M in career money through 2021.
Mitch Trubisky (1st rounder in 2017) has earned $31M in career money through 2021.
Prescott hit free agency one year earlier. Yes, he's better but it only reinforces the point that draft round does not determine talent or production.
For all the press they get - rookie contracts are inconsequential details in the earning of a successful NFL player. Any agent knows this and they will explain it very easily with easy examples. The draft status is a big deal coming out of college - Trubiasky got $28M on his rookie deal as the second overall pick. Dak got $6M as a 4th rounder. Does that mean Trubisky is better off? Of course not. Dak first free agent year contract (while Trubiasky was still on his rookie deal) was $31M - basically equal to their combined earning over 8 seasons under rookie deals.
So, if you assume Joe Burrow is Joe Burrow either way - and his talent would have came through in the end (as Tom Brady's did) then it doesn't matter one lick where he gets drafted in the end. But that extra year of free agent money is a HUGE financial difference.
Joe Burrow is getting Mitch Trubisky money instead of Dak Prescott money. In 2023 he'll make 11M dollars. But as one of the best QBs in the NFL, if he was a free agent, he would be making over $40M dollars. That's a $30M dollar difference, probably more. In that one year!
Some of it was recouped in the substantially larger rookie contract (going form round 5 to round 1) but some more was lost by giving up the rookie year money he could have earned in 2019 too. Those considerations are trivial compared to how much less he will make in 2023.
So, even in the BEST CASE SCENARIOS of rare guys like Hutch and Burrow who are able to elevate their stock in being top 5 picks -- they still gave up lots of money. They chose to be sacrificing a year of their pro careers at peak earnings to get more security up front. They bet on their college selves but not on their NFL selves, at huge expense. Guys like Gary, Hinton, Ruiz, DPJ, and Thomas all did the opposite.
If you're going to be drafted and confident you're going to be a good pro who gets a second contract, then the specific round where you get drafted is insignificant financially compared to the year you get drafted. Because that's what determines when you hit free agency and get paid.
I'm glad you brought up Burrow because he illustrates the tradeoff pretty well.
DeleteBurrows choice was this. Go pro and be a 5th round pick in 2019 or return and (potentially) be a 1st round pick in 2020. So he followed your line of thinking that the latter is better than the former. And It Worked!
But financially, even with all of Burrow's college dreams coming true, he still lost a ton of money.
We can look at other recent examples to illustrate how a 1st round pick one year later is not financially better off than a mid round pick one year later.
Let's look at a 4th round pick in 2016 and compare their earning to a 1st round pick in 2017.
Dak Prescott (4th rounder in 2016) has earned $111M in career money through 2021.
Mitch Trubisky (1st rounder in 2017) has earned $31M in career money through 2021.
Prescott hit free agency one year earlier. Yes, he's better but it only reinforces the point that draft round does not determine talent or production.
For all the press they get - rookie contracts are inconsequential details in the earning of a successful NFL player. Any agent knows this and they will explain it very easily with easy examples. The draft status is a big deal coming out of college - Trubiasky got $28M on his rookie deal as the second overall pick. Dak got $6M as a 4th rounder. Does that mean Trubisky is better off? Of course not. Dak first free agent year contract (while Trubiasky was still on his rookie deal) was $31M - basically equal to their combined earning over 8 seasons under rookie deals.
So, if you assume Joe Burrow is Joe Burrow either way - and his talent would have came through in the end (as Tom Brady's did) then it doesn't matter one lick where he gets drafted in the end. But that extra year of free agent money is a HUGE financial difference.
Joe Burrow is getting Mitch Trubisky money instead of Dak Prescott money. In 2023 he'll make 11M dollars. But as one of the best QBs in the NFL, if he was a free agent, he would be making over $40M dollars. That's a $30M dollar difference, probably more. In that one year!
Some of it was recouped in the substantially larger rookie contract (going form round 5 to round 1) but some more was lost by giving up the rookie year money he could have earned in 2019 too. Those considerations are trivial compared to how much less he will make in 2023.
So, even in the BEST CASE SCENARIOS of rare guys like Hutch and Burrow who are able to elevate their stock in being top 5 picks -- they still gave up lots of money. They chose to be sacrificing a year of their pro careers at peak earnings to get more security up front. They bet on their college selves but not on their NFL selves, at huge expense. Guys like Gary, Hinton, Ruiz, DPJ, and Thomas all did the opposite.
If you're going to be drafted and confident you're going to be a good pro who gets a second contract, then the specific round where you get drafted is insignificant financially compared to the year you get drafted. Because that's what determines when you hit free agency and get paid.
-LANK
@ Lank 4:48 p.m.
DeleteYes, Dak Prescott - who stuck around for five years of college - is a great example for why players should leave early for the NFL.
He's an example of how career earnings aren't dependent on where you are drafted.
DeleteIf you want a comparison of the benefits of leaving early, that's easy. Where would like to start? How about comparing two NFL QBs from the same HS class (2015) who got drafted 10 picks apart by the NFL and both became NFL starters.
Lamar Jackson went pro after 3 years and went #32 in the 2018 draft. Meanwhile, Drew Lock decided to return to college and got drafted at number 42 in 2019. Lock will have earned $7M in his career by the end of this season while Jackson has earned $33M.
For two guys on rookie deals drafted in a similar spot and coming from the same HS class, the money should be the same if draft position is what matters. But it isn't. Why? Because Jackson is in the option year of his rookie deal and getting paid closer to his market value in 2022 while Lock has to wait another year, at least, to get there.
Leaving early got Jackson well over $20M already - he's still on his rookie deal but the 5th year option is where the bigger paychecks can begin. The number will skyrocket next year when Jackson is paid closer to $40M a year on a free agent deal.
We won't know how much Lock lost until he signs his next contract, but coming back to school may have cost him conservatively somewhere between $5M and $20M dollars based on what fringe starters are getting in the free agency market right now. That's not even considering that his stock fell by returning his senior year and that he didn't make anything in 2019. The NFL is extremely thirsty for competent starting QBs and free agents get paid a whole lot more than people on rookie deals.
This is basic. In all these cases, the answer is the same. If the NFL is willing to draft you the financial incentive is massively in favor of going pro as early as possible.
If you have other factors (you want college glory, you want to graduate with your class, you want to get drafted higher for pride) that's perfectly fine! Money isn't everything. I'm not remotely saying it's a MISTAKE for guys like Hutch to come back but I am saying it COSTS a whole lot of money to do it. That's why I can't fault anyone like Hinton or Mayfield or Ojabo for doing what is best for them when they are draft eligible.
Saying "Good Player X has made a whole lot more money than Bad Player Y" is not very meaningful in this conversation, especially when Good Player X spent 5 years in college (3 as a starter) and Bad Player Y spent 4 years in college (1 as a starter).
DeleteHinton is rated as a 5.60 on NFL.com, which is "Candidate for Bottom of the Roster or Practice Squad."
"Players with tenure earn $14,000 per week, or $252,000 per season, a nice spike from the $8,400 practice squad players used to make. And players with two or fewer accrued NFL seasons make $9,200."
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32256800/why-nfl-practice-squads-loaded-big-name-players-know-how-rules-work-more
If he's a practice squad level player leaving Michigan to make $252,000 per year, how much money is he really leaving on the table?
This isn't me coming up with numbers. These are coming from NFL.com, ESPN, etc.
It's not about good player vs bad player - the examples above are NFL starters. They're world-class.
DeleteObviously no one lives two different lives outside of the multiverse, so we can't make an apples to apples comparison. But we can look at apples and pears and see two similar players who took different paths. The more financially rewarding path is very clear. If you're going to be an NFL starter - it pays to come out early.
The whole premise of this conversation is that Hinton is betting on himself. That HE thinks he will be that NFL starter. You are skeptical of Hinton and that is fine but it's a matter of opinion that is different than his.
FWIW I've seen Hinton projected a draft pick - not an undrafted or practice squad player. For example here: https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/colleges/2022/michigan-wolverines
I think we agree if we're talking about a practice squad player the odds are stacked against them. Where we probably don't agree is that coming back for another year of school can change that - I think most guys are who they are. Think about somebody like Brad Hawkins, who might be the 5th year version of somebody like Donovan Warren. Or people like Shea Patterson and Wilton Speight. Talent probably precludes them from being a draft pick, regardless if they come out after year 3, 4, 5, or 6.
But let's say for a minute your pessimistic prediction is accurate. That you are right about Hinton and he's a guy who is only ever going to earn about $250K a year. The amount he left on the table is... still a quarter of a million dollars. That ain't nothing.
For some people they'd rather have another year of college than that. (I wouldn't trade MY senior year of college for $250K right now, I'll tell you that. I'd pay $20K to go back for just a week.) For others they absolutely would prefer the money, and wouldn't think twice.
I think we agree about if he doesn't make a roster then he made the wrong choice. If he proceeds to be an NFL starter who earns a second contract, then financially he will have made himself far richer by going pro earlier rather than trying to get drafted higher. Probably the right choice for him.
Hinton's bet boils down to this: If he's wrong all he lost is a degree (that he can earn later) and a year of college football. If he's right he earned somewhere between $250K and $50M more than he would have. Right or wrong, anyone should be able to understand the decision, IMO.
The faulty assumption is that if you're going to be an NFL starter, you're destined to be an NFL starter. That's where you're making the giant, untenable leap.
DeleteDavid Ojabo would not have been picked in 2021. I'm not sure that Hassan Haskins would have been, either. Or Andrew Stueber. Hutchinson would not have been picked as high in 2021 as he will be in 2022. Sometimes development and performance take place between seasons that help propel players to success/stardom.
You're ignoring the development that takes place in college. The NFL doesn't have room to develop a ton of players. There are only 53 roster spots. You're either good, or you're on the practice squad hoping not to be out of the league.
"Sometimes development and performance take place between seasons that help propel players to success/stardom."
DeleteI'm not ignoring this. I absolutely agree. 100%
I think it can happen in college. OR it can happen in the NFL. Likely for draftable players, it will happen faster in the NFL with full time work and higher level of competition and expectations.
Reminder that we're talking about draftable players here. Nobody is saying guys who aren't projected to be drafted should go pro. If you're going from not draftable to draftable - then go back to college.
However, If you're going for draft stock, say from the 5th round to the 2nd round, or 2nd round to 1st round -- you are sacrificing money, potentially more money than 90% of people earn in a lifetime.
I agree about Ojabo - since, you know, he wasn't eligible.
DeleteI'm not so sure about Haskins. There was already plenty of tape on him. He had already beaten out Charbonnet and others. Now he's more proven but also one year older (less potential) and more miles on him. I'd argue a team might have been interested in the 5th or 6th round just like they are now. The NFL drafts on potential which hasn't really changed. You could be right, I just don't think it's obvious that the NFL scouts changed their view as much as fans.
I agree on Steuber though. He was wise to come back in 2021 and wise to choose to NOT come back in 2022. He wasn't draftable last year. I also don't remember him even considering turning pro or anyone arguing he should have after 2020.
Ultimately, Hinton, Steuber, and Hinton all made the same decision. They chose to not come back after establishing themselves as draftable players.
You're differentiating from the perspective of careers at M, but they're looking ahead. I think their perspective is more relevant to their decision.
The bad assumption is that the "NFL doesn't have room to develop a ton of players". It absolutely does if you are drafted. I think that's clear with the majority of our 3rd year draft picks. The majority take time to develop. Sometimes it's a few games (e.g., Ruiz), sometimes it's years (e.g., Gary) - and that goes for 4th year guys and 5th year guys just like 3rd year guys.
The other thing we know is that coming back doesn't guarantee your stock won't go down. Hinton could come back and elevate to a 3rd round pick or whatever, he could also prove himself as undraftable. We've seen it before - Shea Patterson being a prominent example.
Anyway this has changed from the initial convo of if you should be disappointed in his M career. I disagree with that based on expectations. Now we're talking about if Hinton made a mistake. I don't think he did but that hinges on the assumption that he is going to be drafted, as projected by others.
If Hinton is not drafted then I will agree with your perspective that he would have been better off returning to college.
It really is very simple. Set expectations based on history or set expectations based on fantasy.
ReplyDeleteCancel Chris Hinton! This young man who no is no longer on the roster dares to have high expectations for our Defense, and specifically points out who he has HIGH expectations for!
ReplyDeleteHe's a fan now, and should withhold pressure from these young players! Oh, no ... what will they do now that fans believe in them???
https://www.on3.com/teams/michigan-wolverines/news/chris-hinton-2022-nfl-combine-interview/
Hinton is part of the football program.
DeleteThe arrogance and delusion of equating yourself with Chris Hinton.
DeleteLet me make this pretty simple JE. You are nothing like Chris Hinton. When it comes to Michigan football - He is relevant. You are not.
They're not going to hang your photo in Schembechler Hall, they're not going to give you a sideline pass, and they're not going to tweet about it when you have a good day at work. You and what you have to say don't matter to Michigan football. Chris Hinton does.
Who compared themselves to Chris Hinton? Ah, the Lank logic: argue points not made, and DIG IN!
DeleteAnyway, Hinton is no longer on the roster. He's a former player and fan now & forever
Also, I have been on the sidelines, multiple times, as a guest of the university and a consultant to the Color Guard, so there's that
What I say is relevant and matters to YOU. Rent free Lank, you can't help it
I criticize your takes AS A FAN. You apply that logic to Hinton AS A FAN.
ReplyDeleteThen you run from it and resort to insults.
Hinton will always be more than a fan. Even when he's 80. I've been on the sideline many times too - doesn't change that I'm a fan not part of the program.
Same old delusional JE, total lack of self awareness.
Moving the target again Lank
DeleteThis is over. Enjoy your spring
@JE
DeleteI'll look forward to absorbing your insults and dismantling your troll takes on another thread!