River Rouge (MI) River Rouge defensive tackle Davonte Miles decommitted from Michigan on Thursday. He had been committed to Michigan since mid-December of 2020 (LINK).
Miles is listed at 6'5", 275 lbs. and is a 3-star, the #127 defensive lineman, and #960 overall.
I did not view Miles as an impact player at the next level, but his commitment was important because Michigan needs interior defensive linemen. While Michigan does not have any other defensive tackle commitments, they are pursuing numerous others and Miles seemed to have been forgotten. With a new defensive staff in place, it's quite possible that Mike Macdonald and Co. just didn't see Miles fitting into their scheme.
Michigan has now lost two defensive tackle commits in the 2022 class, Miles and Alex VanSumeren.
The narrative that this staff emphasizes size and numbers on the interior DL remains an unsubstantiated theory.
ReplyDeleteYou mean the last few years? I don't think anyone thought they were emphasizing DTs - in fact, the complaints were opposite that
DeleteIf you mean McDonald & co, I don't think a decommit from the #1ooo or whatever recruit means much. As soon as Brown was booted, we took three DTs in recruiting and added another through the portal. As Thunder notes above, the 2022 class has more coming, all rated higher than Devonte Miles
This staff - McDonald and co - is supposedly emphasizing this. But the numbers aren't up from previous classes. Brown recruited 2 of the 3 DTs the staff added. And the staff is still bringing on 220 pound DEs (even though we call them LBs now they play the same role on the edge).
DeleteI've heard "it's coming" but haven't seen it. One guy doesn't change the story - that's true for a decommit. Also true for the kid added late from Colorado.
We have 4 new names on the roster as Defensive Tackles. The last time we came close was 2019, when we added Hinton & Maxi. That was preceded by 2018 & followed by 2020, in which we got Zero combined
DeleteFour new guys in a year at the position - and at least three being pursued for next year - is a substantial shift from adding two in the previous three years
The fact is that Brown stepped into a very different situation with the best and deepest DL in Michigan history in 2016. Yet In HIS first recruiting class Brown immediately prioritized the interior and recruited 5 DTs (Solomon, Irving-Bey, Hudson, Jeter, Paea) to fill in and replace. The next class included Welshoff and Hutchinson - who have both played DT. Not to mention Paye who also played DT as a freshman.
DeleteMacDonald may surpass that number in time. You're entitled to speculate on the point. But adding 2 guys that Brown didn't recruit to the team over 7 months isn't an especially strong indicator.
Also not a strong indicator (to put it kindly) is the fact that we are more than half way through the next recruiting cycle (both in months and commits) with ZERO DL commits, let alone DTs.
So 4 DTs in 7 months is supposed to be a sea change eh? Let's check in on Don Brown to get a sense for what he might have played it. Well....look at that, 2 commits in '21, a transfer in, and one commit already in '22. Looks like...the exact same number. hu.
I hope you are right that more resources will be thrown at DL but we haven't seen it so far no matter how you try to twist the numbers. The talent Brown inherited from Hoke/Mattison on the DL was continued at DE but not DT, but it wasn't because of a strategic recruiting failure on Brown's fault (location, size, or numbers) it was that the recruits they got weren't developed into high quality players or didn't stick around.
The guy most directly responsible for that is still here. It fell apart when Mattison left and Nua came in.
So for now you're just talking about your hopes, while asserting that they are reality. Without much to back it up. Mostly just a lazy narrative where blame lies on the available whipping boy, who happened to pump out top 10 defenses everywhere he coaches.
-LANK
@ Lank 5:35 p.m.
DeleteI think it's a little disingenuous to say that all five of those guys were recruited to play defensive tackle. Solomon is the only one of the five to be a true DT. Others were either SDE/DT tweeners (Irving-Bey, Jeter) or DT/OL tweeners (Paea, Hudson).
I'm not buying the purity argument. Chris Wormley was a "SDE/DT tweener" and he ended up playing nose tackle in the NFL. You said Jeter was headed for 3-tech when he committed - and that's what most others thought too. Irving Bey was over 280 pounds as a recruit - clearly headed inside as well. Rooks Benny and Iwunnah all list under 280, so we're projecting with these guys too.
DeleteThere's always a chance guys are going to change positions. In fact, this new defense - with a 3-man front - makes it even MORE likely that we end up with SDE/DT tweeners playing at DE (like Wormley and Gary did).
Regardless, even if you want to be a naysayer, Brown brought in AT LEAST 3 DTs in his first class. Which is the amount McDonald just brought in, in a supposed sea change.
We'll see if he'll do more than Brown in regard to recruiting DT more heavily. Again, I hope so. I'm old school in believing that you build out from OL and DL. But right now we haven't seen a substantial change yet, like many of us hope. The only real difference I've seen is Whitley - a guy who Brown probably wouldn't have had much interest in. But he did play Mone - another mega sized DL - which proves he didn't have a problem with bigger DTs if they could play.
Brown is like Rich Rod right now - plenty of legit reasons to criticize and question them. Perhaps the game has passed them by. But then the criticism spills out in nonsensical ways (Rich Rod had excellent OL recruiting and development and Brown had excellent DL recruiting and development until Nua showed up).
-LANK
@ LANK 10:32 a.m.
DeleteRashan Gary was listed at 293 lbs. as a recruit. He played strongside end and is now an OLB in the NFL. We never saw Irving-Bey play at Michigan, but how can you say he was definitively headed for DT when he was 11 pounds lighter than a career SDE for the same coaches?
I've seen you insinuate the NT thing about Wormley several times. Can you send me a link to any video or picture that shows him lining up as a 0-tech, shade, or even 1-tech? I've never seen him play anywhere inside an OG. Here's a whole video of him lining up as a 3-tech for the Ravens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOC1O5Y7ews&ab_channel=SteelerNationHighlights
I'm not saying you're wrong about Wormley, but I've never seen it. From everything I've seen, he's been a DT, not a NT. He's listed as a NT on the Pittsburgh Steelers roster, but oddly, he's the only "NT" but the third heaviest guy listed as a "NT" or "DT."
The Ravens and Steeler both call him a nose tackle and that's how he has been listed on their rosters.
Deletehttps://www.steelers.com/news/wormley-signed-to-a-two-year-contract
If you want to say the teams are lying about this, I'm interested on why they would do that.
A somewhat clarifying article on Wormley which backs up part of your claim - he mostly plays DE but also makes clear that he also played and plays NT.
DeleteDoesn't explain why he is listed that way on the roster.
https://triblive.com/sports/chris-wormley-not-quite-on-the-nose-but-assimilating-into-steelers-defense/
"Wormley has experience playing across all line spots of a 3-4 scheme over his three seasons with Baltimore since being a 2017 third-round pick out of Michigan."
"“In the 3-4 scheme, our base package, I’m more of a ‘4-tech,’ playing (against) the (offensive) tackles,” Wormley said during a video conference call with media Thursday, echoing what defensive line coach Karl Dunbar said earlier during camp. “Then, when we go into our sub-packages, I’ll be inside on the guards and centers, depending strength and formation and all that stuff.”
Interesting. I haven't seen him move inside, but if they're talking about it, it must be true. I would still suggest that he's not really a NT; he just masquerades there sometimes. Kind of like how Kwity Paye wasn't a defensive tackle, but Michigan would play him as a 3-tech on passing downs. And then, of course, there's the famous Jordan Glasgow-as-DT moment against Wisconsin a couple years ago...
DeleteI see your point but I think we should probably recognize that the pass rush package is a legitimate positional usage in the modern game.
DeleteI don't know where you draw the line but it's somewhere between Jabril Peppers playing QB and Jabril Peppers playing LB. We all know that Jabril is a DB but he played a SAM-like role often enough to be a legit college LB. Likewise, I think some of our DEs see enough snaps in pass rush packages to be legitimate college DTs (e.g., Hutchinson). Oftentimes, these packages are where games are won and lost, so in my mind it's very legit even if you don't want Hutch lining up near the Wisconsin OC. At this point THAT is an unusual circumstance.
...
Regardless of Wormley's legitimacy at NT, he is very most clearly a DT at the NFL level, even though he played most of his downs at DE at Michigan. I'm very surprised Rashan Gary is a OLB at the next level - but it just goes to show the fluidity of positions. Hutchinson will probably follow along similar lines of a PLAYER who can lineup at DT, DE, or Edge LB and be effective.
It's not a problem it's a feature - just like in the NBA when you have a guys like Magic Johnson and Giannis moving around between PG and Center.
There is literally NOTHING bad about taking a recruit who can play multiple positions. There is NOTHING wrong with projecting physical growth over time. Michigan had great success with this on the DL for many years. It's not why they've struggled to maintain elite DT play over the last 3 or 4 years.
Mattison and Brown whiffed on the big DL class of 2017. I think Mattison saw the writing on the wall and skipped town before the shit hit the fan. It was going to be a rebuild and unpleasant and why bother with the headache if you have a better (more lucrative) option. I don't like it, because I believe in loyalty, integrity, and trust, but from a cold rational perspective it adds up.
But I digress.
-LANK
Oh Lank. Only you can follow "facts" with absolute falsehoods
ReplyDeleteIn addition to going back five recruiting classes to boast Brown's DT recruiting, of the 5 you list, only Solomon was recruited as a DT. DIB, Hudson & Jeter were DEs recruited to play SDE. Only Jeter projected as a potential tweener, but even then it was a 3-4yr wait
It's OK. You have your revised history; it just isn't true
I can only point you to facts so many times.
ReplyDeleteBrown recruited 2 of the 3 DTs you are touting as "pure". That's in the last year i.e., present. None of them list weight over 280. Just like Jeter/Irving Bey they are PROJECTED to grow into interior players. Just like Jeter/Irving Bey some of them will end up playing at DE. Most of them will probably play both (like Jeter, Hinton, Paye, Hutchinson, Charlton, Kemp, Welschoff, Wormley, etc.)
As usual the black/white perspective leads you down a path of misunderstanding.
-LANK
Lank: "these are the facts"
ReplyDeleteEveryone else: "no, not really"
Also Lank: "stop being so black & white"
🤦🏽♂️
Only Solomon was projected as, recruited as, and listed on that UM 2017 roster as a DT. Of the rest, all either played DE, were either scouted & recruited by M (and other schools) as SDE (or OL), and then joined the team as such
The "shift" you ignore is that today guys recruited to play DT are projected as only DT - we all know where they fit in. Again, you went back five years, tried to lie, and got caught. The new staff may not be recruiting well, missing on many of their top guys, but the shift is evident in that we have four new guys headed only for the interior, which is twice as many as we had the three years prior
@JE
DeleteSometimes when a child is told something they don't want to hear they cover their ears and scream "LIAR!". That's how I know when you are triggered.
This is how it is: Michigan is not using anymore scholarships on potential DTs than they did when Don Brown came on board. Michigan is not recruiting DTs who are bigger than the ones they recruited when Don Brown came on board.
Your purity test of "true DTs" is fake. These guys are PROJECTED to be DTs but some will play DE (especially true now with a 3-man front). Just like in the Brown era. No change.
Don't believe me? Here's Thunder on the DL class when DIB committed. He explicitly lists 5 recruits who could play DT AS FRESHMAN. And most of them are guys he - and consensus - expected to play at DT.
"
Irving-Bey has the body of a future 3-tech defensive tackle, in my opinion. He could also be a 5-tech end, which is the position he played in his high school’s odd-front defense. If you look at the depth chart for 2017 (LINK), there really aren’t a lot of experienced players returning on the interior of the line. Someone like Rashan Gary could probably continue to play at strongside end while also taking some snaps at 3-tech, but at least one freshman is likely to see snaps at 3-tech. I do not believe it will be Irving-Bey, who should probably redshirt, but the door remains open for several people – Irving-Bey, Donovan Jeter, James Hudson III, Phillip Paea – to jockey for position.
"
Coach Greg Mattison on James Hudson
Delete"James Hudson is an outstanding athlete. He comes from a great family and comes to Michigan from Toledo Central Catholic. He played both offense and defense on his high school team, and he was really an outstanding player. He will play at defensive tackle for us here at the University of Michigan, and we are glad that he's going to be a Wolverine."
Thunder also projected him as most likely a DT if he ended up playing defense (which is what he was listed at as a recruit) rather than offense (where he ended up after changing positions).
Thunder on Paea: "I like Paea first and foremost as an offensive guard, but it sounds like Michigan wants him as a defensive tackle."
ReplyDeleteThunder on Jeter: "I see him being a 3-technique tackle at the next level, because he lacks the speed to be an edge rusher and plays a little too high for a regular nose tackle."
ReplyDeleteYou know how I start to think Lank is triggered? He starts with the insults
ReplyDeleteIgnore facts & evidence, and repeat opinions (yours & others). Makeup or reword a coach's statement ... But at all costs, dig in!
You know when I know Lank is triggered? He starts replying to his own posts, sometimes 3-4times. That's it, I don't want anyone melting down ... I'm out. You can have it!
Where is the insult? And where is the lie?
DeleteLANK: Statement
JE: Liar!
LANK: Argument and evidence backing up statement
JE: Stop insulting me!
Can't handle the heat get out the kitchen.
All quotes direct from Thunder's commit posts or official player bios on the UM site.
DeleteSorry if you struggle to follow with multiple posts but well, you also struggle with longer ones.
@Thunder
ReplyDeleteIt seems like a thing where people are drawing black and white distinctions on something that is pretty fluid. Michigan has consistently lined up guys at DE and DT both, and often had SDE/Anchors who are bigger than their DTs. As defenses get more multiple it's common to see DEs line up inside in packages against spread offenses too.
The big DE vs DT thing is a bit like the slot vs outside WR debate or the WDE vs RLB thing. It's mostly semantics. Yes, some guys are "true" to one or the other but most really good players are going to move around in various packages or to keep opposition on it's toes.
For every Bryan Mone (pure DT) there will be 3 Chris Wormleys (DT/DE) and for every "pure slot" there will be Jeremy Gallons and Ronnie Bells.
It's especially egregious to make the "true DT" argument now when Michigan is on the verge of starting two career DTs (Jeter and Hinton) at DE.
-LANK
I actually agree with this Lank. We want guys who can do more than one thing; even Mike Martin was dropped into coverage when mattison arrived in 2011
ReplyDeleteThe disagreement here is that there was no shift in emphasis. I said there was, because we went from recruiting DEs who might (or we hoped) could potentially play inside, to taking in 4 guys who only play inside. You won't see any of the 4 lined up outside the Tackles, nor will they be confused with LBs ... they're strictly interior
We will still take guys who can do both - but not at the expense of one or another. Corners & Safeties might be able to do both, but we will certainly take guys who are special (and intended) for only one. Same a interior/outside LB, and the same a applies to DL: we will have a guy or two per class who is without question headed inside
Glad that's clarified, and as I said, I agree with your last points
I appreciate the diplomacy JE. I also agree that we will continue to take some guys who are position flexible and some guys who are more focused or specialized. Which is fine and consistent with what is being done before.
DeleteTo clarify on the DT -- we took 3 guys and brought in a transfer. Here are the reasons this not a change in emphasis from the Don Brown era.
1. Brown is doing the same thing at AZ
2. Brown recruited 2 of the same 3 recruits (excluding the late flip from CU)
3. Brown recruited potential DTs even more heavily when he arrived (5 guys) in '17. All were projected as DT over DE, though a couple were thought to be potential OL.
4. The '21 recruits are smaller than the '17 recruits
5. Some of the current recruits will end up playing DE, so they are not strictly DTs either
6. None of those 5 '17 recruits ended up playing outside the Tackles. None were ever considered a LB either. They may have practiced at SDE or moved to OL or transferred but they were considered DT options at the time they were recruited as documented above.
I do agree that Whitley is a guy Brown would probably not have taken. How much that was a conscious choice vs getting a guy who was available and willing to come is up to interpretation.
Delete-LANK
Alright, we're closer on this than at the start. First, to your five points:
Delete1) Not sure how relevant Brown's recruiting for 2022 applies to 2017, but OK. AZ has two interior DL committed so far, and one weighs 230LB
3) according to UM signing of the stars, only Jeter projected to interior
4) this is true. Good catch
5) I don't see Benny, Rooks or the other FR playing End. Maybe on goaline, but not much more
6) also true. Only Jeter & Solomon actually played defense at all though, to be fair
Anyway, I think where we agree is that it's still not enough. Not one of the 4 DTs added for 2021 is likely to contribute much, with the three FR only getting in bc four games are free. So, yeah. It's basically more of the same on the interior DL
1: https://247sports.com/college/arizona/Season/2022-Football/Commits/
3: https://mgoblue.com/news/2017/2/1/Signing_of_the_Stars_Brings_U_M_Highest_Rated_Class_in_Modern_Era.aspx