Name: Hogan Hansen
Height: 6'5"
Weight: 230 lbs.
High school: Bellevue (WA) Bellevue
Position: Tight end
Class: Freshman
Jersey number: #81
Last year: Hansen was a senior in high school (LINK). He caught 11 passes for 224 yards and 4 touchdowns, and ran 8 times for 121 yards and 2 touchdowns; he also made 44 tackles, 11 tackles for loss, 6 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, and 2 fumble recoveries.
TTB Rating: 78
Hansen made the great choice of picking a college program that also wears winged helmets, so he can keep the same look from his high school years. He also picked a team that loves to use tight ends. Even if Jim Harbaugh, the tight end whisperer, is gone to the NFL, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that Sherrone Moore will continue to use a heavy dose of tight ends in his offensive philosophy. Hansen comes from a Wing-T program where he isn't used to getting the ball a ton (19 offensive touches as a senior) and he has good technique as a blocker, so it will largely be a matter of adding size and strength in college.
Fortunately for his development, Hansen will probably not be asked to play right away. Michigan has returning star Colston Loveland at the position, and he'll be backed up by guys like Marlin Klein and Deakon Tonielli, not to mention fullback-ish tight ends Max Bredeson and Jalen Hoffman. Additionally, Michigan brought in an elite tight end prospect in Brady Prieskorn in the 2024 class. This should be a year of preparation and development for Hansen.
Prediction: Redshirt
Very promising position group. Long live TE U
ReplyDeleteYou are much more optimistic on the TE depth chart than me. Perhaps this is warranted since it doesn't seem like we have ever had a real capital P PROBLEM at TE.
ReplyDeleteBut then I I imagine what things look like if all-world superstar Colston Loveland twists an ankle and is unavailable for Oregon or OSU. Have to say I feel pretty far from great about 2 walk-ons (one of them proven, albeit undersized for in line TE) and 2 guys who have barely played. Feels like that group might not be able to handle the Harbaugh offense's demands on the TE position.
Of course they can adapt personnel, playing 3 WR, or 6 OL, or 2 RB instead of 12 personnel, but the Harbaugh Way has been to have 2 TEs on the field more often than not. Sometimes 3 LOL
Yeah...I mean, what if all-world superstar Will Johnson, Mason Graham, Kenneth Grant, or Donovan Edwards twists an ankle and is unavailable for Oregon or OSU? Injuries to star players are always scary.
DeleteIs Michigan ready to start a cornerback duo of Aamir Hall and Jyaire Hill? Is Rayshaun Benny a realistic replacement for Graham or Grant, especially coming off of an ankle injury? How much different will the offense look if Kalel Mullings and Ben Hall - Thunder and Thunder - are the top two backs?
If we're worried about the readiness of the second-best freshman tight end on the team, that's the definition of a First World Problem.
Yes each guy individually is a loss but I think it's much worse at TE than any spot you listed..
DeleteRB - there are already people in the fanbase who think Mullings had a better season than Edwards last year and that it's more of a 1a/1b situation. We already know Michigan can lean on one single primary back if/when they need to -- happened with Haskins, Corum, and Edwards when other guys went down. There is no equivalent to Mullings at TE. If the staff was successful in keeping Matt Hibner around, there perhaps could have been. But he's gone too.
CB - thanks to the Portal we have multiple options who are proven starters from other schools. Even if Jayire Hill (projected by some to start beside WJ) isn't quite ready, we should be alright. Plus Jaden McBurrows who played some meaningful snaps last year. Perhaps Klein can be considered equivalent to Hill through the lense of internal optimism regarding upside, but the differences are stark beyond that. There is no safety net like the portal transfers and McBurrows at TE.
DT - You have a point here and that's why you've heard Michigan staying active in the Portal to try to fill out the depth chart and rotation at DT. Nonetheless, Rayshaun Benny is a guy you feel very good about as a replacement given how well he played last year. Benny was out there against Alabama. So if one of our superstar DTs go down you've got an excellent replacement. Klein is not that - not yet at least. There's 3 proven DTs and only 2 proven TEs.
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It's very early in the countdown I acknowledge but that's kind of the point. Prieskorn will (I assume) be much higher on this list but sometimes freshman don't sort out the way we expect (e.g., Waller playing over Hill).
You are absolutely right that it's a 1st world problem to be worried about who the backup TE is. Except that in a Harbaugh offense the 3rd TE is kind of like the 3rd DT. It's kind of important who fills that role and, if there is an injury, who replaces the guy who fills that role.
So just my 2 cents but I'd slide all the TE up a bit given the roster uncertainty after Bredeson & Loveland and the fact that Bredeson playing as an in-line TE is kind of like shoehorning a 3-tech at NT. We all probably remember the challenges that posed for Michigan in the not too distant path.
Just my opinion. I acknowledge (and value) the coaching staff not seeming too concerned. I wonder if it signals a difference in offensive approach because I think Harbaugh would have pursued some additions to the TE room beyond CL.
Delete@ Lank 3:14 p.m.
DeleteIn two seasons, Marlin Klein played in 10 games at tight end and 12 games altogether (2 on special teams).
In four seasons, Matt Hibner played in 16 games at tight end and 28 games altogether (12 on special teams).
Hibner had two extra seasons in Ann Arbor and he played in just six more games at the position we're discussing. So while I'm not saying they're equivalent, I don't know that there's a giant gap between the two.
I will say that Hibner got some hype as being perhaps the best pound-for-pound athlete on the team, but Klein has also earned some buzz for being freaky athletic.
Michigan also has a history of bringing in backups as an extra tight end, whether it's a tackle (Trente Jones) or an unexpected walk-on (Carter Selzer). Maybe there's a plan for someone like Jeff Persi/Andrew Gentry if either one loses the tackle job, or perhaps someone like Blake Frazier could step in there. I'm going to assume that offensive line coach-turned-head coach Sherrone Moore has some tricks up his sleeve when it comes to manufacturing ways to get a sixth man on the line or beefing up a tight end.
Yes, I agree that Michigan's track record of TE development is notable here. Probably the best counter-argument to my concern. It is not only about the numbers but the variety of sources from portal to walk-ons, freshman to emerging vets, even former OL (like Honigford).
DeleteI also acknowledge the ability to use a 6th OL. However, the effectiveness of this without ever throwing to said 6th OL probably caps how much you can use this personnel package. If it IS being used a lot more - I'd call that a notable change in approach.
I dunno about the Carter Selzer walk-on argument. You're already listing 2 walk-ons in your top 4 options and both are classified by Casula as FBs more than TEs. I'm skeptical there's a 3rd option that can play in-line.
So it's really all about Klein. Klein is the critical piece here. Working against Klein are several things including the fact that Hibner was ahead of him last year clearly. Hibner played 27 snaps in the first 3 games until shutting himself down to get a red-shirt for a transfer. Klein played 9. Then Hibner again played more in the post-season. So even if you ignore the difference between a 5th year player (that Hibner is in 2024) vs a 3rd year player (Klein), you also have the fact that Hibner was a top 15 TE recruit nationally while Klein was a project (ranked #29 nationally) coming over from Europe. Maybe he's Ojabo (massive breakout in 3rd year), or maybe he's Welshof (nope). We dunno.
We don't know what Klein is but right now we are writing him in as a the #2 TE (In-line) and #3 guy in the TE room anyway, pretty much by default. Meanwhile, Hibner's a guy getting SEC and ACC offers after being the #4 TE at Michigan last year.
Bottomline is that Hibner would offer a solid floor for #3 TE. That is simply not there with Klein, Tonelli, freshman, or walk-ons.
Keep in mind TE #3 is a rotational "starter" position in the Michigan offense. Similar in snap count to RB#2, WR#3, LB#3, and DT#4. If you were looking at TE#3 as similar to RB#2, you'd look at whoever is TE#4 as similar to RB#3. Not critical necessarily, but one ankle roll away from a substantial role.
So back to the point of the post. Right now we have no idea who TE#4 is, and Hansen can't be rule out yet given the uncertainty. Maybe it's only a 5% chance that Michigan NEEDS Hansen to be a player, but that's more likely than most of the guys this low on the list. In contrast, the freshman RBs will land much much higher on this list I imagine, even though there is a serviceable veteran (Dunlap) in the room, plus a guy who showed promise in Ben Hall, plus 2 other highly rated recruits.
As discussed in previous years -- my early countdown quibbles don't matter. We're at 110 in the countdown and guy number 70 probably isn't playing a meaningful role either, so who cares. I'm just saying -- usually there's some lower ranked guys who DO end up playing a notable role and I would put this longshot ahead of some of the other longshots, because TE depth is so lacking in proven options. Longshot either way though.
Relevant as a potential lesson learned:
Deletehttps://touchthebanner.blogspot.com/2023/05/2023-season-countdown-115-josh-beetham.html
Beetham played TE in 7 games, 9 games overall. 60 offensive snaps on the season. Double Hibner and 3 times Klein.
Is Hogan the next Beetham? Maybe not but he's ranked similarly....
@ Lank 7:22 p.m.
DeleteThis is the dichotomy of talking about these things with you, Lank. You have previously admonished me for talking about recruiting rankings when we're several years into someone's career...and yet here you bring up recruiting rankings for 5th year TE Matt Hibner and 3rd year TE Marlin Klein.
@ Lank 7:36 p.m.
Yes, Josh Beetham was ranked #115 and played more than one would expect for a player ranked that low. That doesn't account for the fact that guys like Zack Marshall (#81) and Deakon Tonielli (#90) were ranked ahead of Beetham.
This isn't a question of whether multiple tight ends will be relevant. It's a question of WHICH tight ends will be most relevant. There are still several tight ends who have yet to be listed in the 2024 countdown, including Loveland, Klein, Marshall, Tonielli, Prieskorn, Bredeson, Hoffman, etc. This year's Beetham doesn't have to be Hogan Hansen; it could be Marshall or Prieskorn.
I take your point on the ratings - it's not very relevant. But it is maybe notable that the rankings are roughly playing out according to script so far. Hibner was already a minor but meaningful contributor in 2022 (backing up NFL guys) and you had Hibner on the '23 countdown at 37. Which was fairly accurate... until Hibner said "actually I want to play somewhere else next year. So I'll be red-shirting". Klein was ranked 77 last year (probably accurate given how low he ended up on the depth chart). He was still a project last year and is STILL a project today, which is also relevant.
DeleteBeetham being ranked that low is kind of the point with Hogan. Marshall and Tonelli weren't necessarily too low, but Beetham definitely was. He was playing snaps at a level similar to Kaleel Mullings. So even if you were right about WHICH tight ends order where, the backup TE spot that Beetham might have been in is too low at 81.
And this was in a year (2023) where TE rotation was scaled back dramatically compared to the previous year (2022).
So, it's probably a systematic thing of underrating tight ends on the bottom side of the depth chart at least, not just which tight ends rank where. Take a look at this comparison of your countdown in 2023 (hopefully I didn't miss any):
RB ranks : 6, 13, 38, 47, 51, 59, 80, 84, 99
TE ranks: 16, 22, 37, 46, 77, 81, 90, 115
The RB at #38 played 87 snaps on offense. The TE at #37 played 32...while redshirting! The RB at #47 played 6 snaps. The TE at #46 played 236. After that the rankings diverge and TEs are valued lower.
Something seems off here no?
Set aside the top 3 or 4 - this is not intended to be an argument about positional values of the starters - and focus on the lower ratings of guys 5 through 8.
In the Harbaugh offense, RB is 1 position, while TE is 2. RB is a position where walk-ons rarely see meaningful snaps*, while TE is a position where walk-on's often see meaningful snaps.
There is usually not more than 3 guys playing meaningful downs in competitive situations at RB. An injury can make it 4 in a game. But you can also have 1 guy play 80% of downs. (e.g., Fiesta bowl was 74 Edwards, 9 Mullings, and 1 Dunlap). Meanwhile TE routinely sees 4 or 5 guys (e.g., Fiesta bowl was 70 Loveland, 20 Honigford, 11 Schoonmaker, 11 Hibner, 8 Bredeson). Even in a game where the starting RB was hurt mid-game (2022 Illinois) and there was a great deal of uncertainty - there was still only 4 RBs who got snaps (Corum, Stokes, Dunlap, Gash) compared to 4 TEs (Hibner, Honiford, Bredeson, Loveland all played as well).
Note I'm intentionally talking about games that were competitive start to finish, not games against MAC opponents or end of game backup drives.
So when you talk about the guy who might be the 4th or 5th TE you are talking about a guy who is going to probably play some meaningful snaps. Yet, in your countdown the guys who might be 4th or 5th RBs are ranked higher, even though they are very unlikely to see meaningful snaps unless there are multiple injuries hitting the position at once (as in 2022 Illinois).
So I disagree this is about which TE plays. The issue is that the TE position depth is simply more relevant at the bottom end than the RB position depth is. (And other positions too - RB is just where it's most obvious).
I'll reference another competitive game from start to finish -- Alabama. Snap counts at RB were Corum 37, Edwards 18, Mullings 6. Snap counts at TE (not including 6th OL) were Barner 46, Loveland 42, Bredeson 10, Hibner 1. So yeah, you can tighten up rotation and maybe get by with 3 TE just like you can get by with 2 RB, but you want to ideally have 3 RB and 5 TEs rotating through ideally.
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No matter how you slice it the depth chart goes deeper at TE than RB, but the countdown makes it look like the opposite is true.
I'll stop now because that's WAY too much consideration of the countdown's 100 whatever spot. Even I'm not that passionate about your rankings below 100 LOL. I'm talking about it because it's relevant to much higher ranking spots. TE is underrated as a whole!
DeleteIMO. but the snap counts, especially in meaningful games, back my opinion up.
@ Lank 12:20 p.m.
DeleteYou made my point for me. And that's why the Carter Selzer comment above is relevant. Some of the tight end roles (snaps) can be filled by walk-ons, and that's actually a depth chart that goes pretty deep. It includes or has included guys like Beetham, Selzer, Bredeson, Hunter Neff, etc. It also includes position-switchers (Henry Poggi, Joel Honigford, etc.) who can't find another role on the field.
If Josh Beetham or Carter Selzer is on the field, the offense doesn't fall apart. I can cross-train a backup defensive end or a backup offensive tackle to go in there on short yardage or goal line offense and make a down block or a combo block.
If I get so deep on the depth chart that I have to cross train a linebacker to take running back snaps on the goal line...TCU happens, and the guy fumbles on the goal line, and you lose by 6 points.
True running backs are more valuable than tight ends. You can take any 6'4" or 6'5", 250-ish pound dude with moderate athleticism and find a role for him. Give me that kid in high school, and I can pretty much guarantee you I can find a college that will be interested in him. Jim Harbaugh has taken a plethora of randomly shaped dudes and turned them into tight ends/fullbacks, from Sione Houma to Henry Poggi.
You can't take any 5'11", 190-ish pound kid and make him a running back. There's a certain amount of speed, quickness, vision, footwork, reaction time, ball security, etc. that's necessary to succeed at the position.
If there are a bunch of injuries at tight end, Michigan can put a #85 jersey on Tristan Bounds and he can go out there and play tight end. The world won't fall apart.
If there are a bunch of injuries at running back, Henry Donohue ain't gonna get the job done.
"Michigan can put a #85 jersey on Tristan Bounds and he can go out there and play tight end.
DeleteDisagree and we haven't seen it. None of our 6th OL are presenting as pass threats. Honiford changed his body and worked on the change for a while, and still didn't present much of a receiving threat.
"If I get so deep on the depth chart that I have to cross train a linebacker to take running back snaps on the goal line...TCU happens, and the guy fumbles on the goal line, and you lose by 6 points."
I disagree with you here as well. Kaleel Mullings is a capable RB, to the point that you think he played better than Donovan Edwards last season. You've been an advocate of his all along, so this seem backwards and inconsistent.
Fumbles happen -- Blake Corum fumbled in some massive moments (though we rarely lost the ball). Mullings fumbled in one too. https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/32970962 Michigan fumbled once in a bowl game with Corum/Haskins/Edwards available and they fumbled once in a bowl game with Edwards/Mullings. No change.
Moreover, a point you consistently dodge is that Mullings wasn't playing RB when this fumble happened. It's a FB issue not RB - and FB is a position where there's a looooooooong history of walk-on's playing it, and playing it well. Including Bredeson. Michigan had fewer RB fumbles with Edwards/Mullings than with Haskins/Corum/Edwards.
I'll also note again that the offense was more successful with Gash/Stokes at RB than with Corum at RB against Illinois in 2022. I think Sione Houma kind of makes the point in the other direction actually - he was FB that they moved to RB and he ended up displacing some 5 star RBs....
Bottomline is I think you are underrating TE systematically. At the top and at the bottom.
While I agree that RB is a position where athleticism is more important, and a smaller pool of players have the requisite athleticism to play it, at the Michigan level it's moot. CJ Stokes is a better athlete than Matt Hibner or Joel Honiford, but we have a half dozen guys lined up who can replicate CJ Stoke's level of athleticism at all times. You can throw Tavierre Dunlap or Ben Hall or Drake Johnson or Sione Houma in there and the offense doesn't fall apart.
We don't have a half dozen guys who can execute the full package of TE duties waiting in the wings. TE is a position that requires elements of OL where physical development and understanding take development time. That is a thing you can't just pull off the sideline at the drop of a hat. The athleticism at RB is. Henry Donohue is immaterial -- because we have 7 guys ahead of him. Josh Beethum isn't -- even if we have 7 guys ahead of him. This has proven out historically.
You are absolutely right that one position is more replaceable than the other, I just think you are picking the wrong one.
@ Lank 5:40 p.m.
DeleteOf course you've seen it! What are you talking about? You've seen it for the past couple years with Trente Jones. You saw it before with Tom Strobel. You don't need to be a pass threat to play tight end. Michigan could very easily put an eligible number on Bounds (or another 6th/7th lineman) and get just as good of blocking - or better - than they did from A.J. Barner.
No, Honigford was never a huge pass receiving threat as a fullback...and neither has Max Bredeson. It turns out teams don't throw the ball to fullbacks much.
Michigan doesn't NEED "a half dozen" guys who can execute the full package of TE duties. What are you talking about? What team has six guys who can block like offensive linemen and catch like receivers? What team needs their fifth or sixth tight end to pull off all those duties? NFL teams only carry about three tight ends and *maybe* one fullback. Your fourth or fifth tight end can be a pass option only or a run blocking option only.
If Michigan gets to its fifth or sixth tight end and NEEDS that guy to be a key piece of the offense...I have some bad news for you.
Also...yes, Josh Beetham played 61 snaps last season. He played in blowouts, games Michigan was going to win, anyway. We don't need to wring our hands about who's going to take his snaps. No offense to him, but Michigan was still going to win the national championship with Josh Beetham taking about 4 snaps per game, mostly at the end of blowouts.
CORRECTION: Michigan was still going to win the natty WITHOUT Beetham taking 4 snaps per game.
DeleteWow - where to start.
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6th OL doesn't equal TE. Trente Jones isn't a walk-on, never caught a pass, and did not play FB. We can put a 6th OL on the field certainly, but in Harbaugh's offense that's not addressing the need for 2 TEs on the field. 2 TEs on the field -- THAT has been the base package of Harbaugh's offense since 2017.
Moreover usually when we are playing a 6th OL it's with 2 TEs on the field in a heavy package. So if you want to call that extra OL a TE then you have to acknowledge the need for 3 TEs on the field.
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"You don't need to be a pass threat to play tight end"
Just as true as saying you don't need to be a run threat to play RB. On most downs they are blocking.
Honiford was an in-line TE who slimmed down and slid over form OT. Not a FB. You'll have to jog my memory about Tom Strobel who I remember as a disappointing DE recruit who didn't do anything notable.
He's currently on his second NFL camp invite to play in-line blocking TE.
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"What team has six guys who can block like offensive linemen and catch like receivers"
Who said catch like receivers? We are talking about presenting as a pass threat so that the defense can't ignore you and tee off on the run.
2022 Michigan had Loveland, Schoonmacher, All, Honigford, Bredeson, Hibner, Selzer, Klein, and Beetham. That's 4 guys (at least) that are NFL draft choices, another (at least) that is an NFL practice squad guy, and several that are college starters (elsewhere if not Michigan). The walk-ons (Selzer, Beetham, Bredeson) might not be NFL caliber but they can block and catch in the offense. The most speculative guy on the list is...Klein. The primary source of my current concern because he's a guy who we don't know if he can block, or catch.
When All and Schoon went down, Harbaugh didn't shrug it off and say oh well I'll just start playing Trente Jones 20+ snaps a game. That didn't happen. He used guys like Hibner and Bredeson rather than a guy who was a starting caliber OT.
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"Your fourth or fifth tight end can be a pass option only or a run blocking option only." It can be - but that's not how Harbaugh rolled, because he values the TE position.
Just as easy and more accurate to say your 4th or 5th RB can be a walk-on or converted FB.
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"If Michigan gets to its fifth or sixth tight end and NEEDS that guy to be a key piece of the offense...I have some bad news for you."
This literally happened in the TCU game Thunder. All was injured early in the year and Schoonmacher, Loveland, Honiford, and Bredeson were the 4-man rotation after that. Against TCU, Schoon went down mid-game, and so Hibner played 11 snaps. Michigan used 6 TEs, not including notable special teams contributor Carter Selzer on the season. And they made the playoff doing that. They lost the game when they had to use the 6th guy in a meaningful downs or try to shoehorn a converted LB and part-time RB into playing FB.
You dismiss the TCU game snap counts because of your bias and blame it on the injury to Corum. Mullings (who played 9 snaps) fumbled, yes, but he fumbled while playing FB. It was the TE spot that was the problem Thunder! Not RB. Losing 2 starters at TE (All and Schoon) created a bigger problem in the playing time rotation than Losing the starter at RB.
Because what you NEED is 2 RBs and 4 TEs. Injuries at either spot will bump you down to needing a 3rd RB and a 5th TE. 3rd RB = 5th TE in importance. I know you'll put a lot of thought into who the 3rd RB is -- but you'll dismiss the 5th TE spot as something any old walk-on or OL can handle. It's equally true that a walk-on, FB, or (apparently) a converted LB, can handle the 3rd RB job.
I'll agree that Michigan was going to win the natty without Beetham playing a snap last year. Michigan was fortunate to have no injuries all season long with their top 3 TEs, who are all excellent players that PFF loves and (at least) 2 NFL draft guys.
DeleteBut that's very lucky -- Michigan was not so lucky in 2022. They had 2 injuries, the first of which they handled well, but the second one they could not. Maybe a second injury at RB would have been similarly impactful, but MIchigan still beat Illinois with their top 2 RBs out so probably not. Apparently you can have a come from behind victory against one of the best defenses in the country with a Isiah Gash (a walk on know best for his receiving skills) as your primary RB. TE depth seemingly matters more.
You didn't think Michigan had a chance to beat OSU without it's starting RB -- but they did. Playing guys like Gash, Dunlap, Stokes, and a freshly moved over Mullings didn't matter in that game and, despite your assertions, it didn't matter against TCU (most of those guys didn't need to play but Mullings after many weeks of practice time played FB and RB).
Meanwhile, You think Michigan can throw a dozen different guys who can't play somewhere else (like Tristan Bounds) in at TE/FB with no issue. YET when they lost their NFL caliber (primarily) blocking TE -- arguably the 3rd best TE on the roster -- they lost to TCU with a converted LB playing FB and guys like Hibner playing on critical downs at TE.
For being a football coach it's a little odd how little respect you seem to have for the importance of blocking and catching* and for being a Michigan football fan it's a little odd how little respect you have for the position where being able to do both is so valuable. I know which side Harbaugh and Bo are on as compared to Rich Rodriguez...
*This goes back to thinking QBs can just be moved to WR at the drop o of the hat and your strong preference for WRs who pass the look test (physical traits like height and 40 time) over those who bring experience and skills. Similarly, at TE you seem to think an OL or a FB sized player can be moved over to in-line TE no problemo.
@ Lank 12:52 p.m.
DeleteI honestly just don't have the time or the interest to argue the value of like the 7th tight end in the countdown. Hogan Hansen is a true freshman and (according to every recruiting ranking) the second-best freshman tight end in Michigan's class of 2024.
@ Lank 12:52 p.m.
Delete"For being a football coach it's a little odd how little respect you seem to have for the importance of blocking and catching* and for being a Michigan football fan it's a little odd how little respect you have for the position where being able to do both is so valuable."
We're not talking about a #1 tight end. Or even a #2 tight end. We're talking about who should be like the #5 or #6 guy. We don't need a perfect player made of all the magic ingredients to be the next Rob Gronkowski. So yeah, if your #6 guy is missing a little bit when it comes to speed, size, catching ability, etc. Maybe I just know, as a football coach, that I can take someone who's 6'5" and 250-ish pounds and turn him into a serviceable piece who can go in and play 5-10 snaps as long as he has a certain baseline of strength and athleticism.
I honestly don't understand what all the fuss is about.
"You didn't think Michigan had a chance to beat OSU without it's starting RB."
That's not what I said at all. Just because I predicted OSU to win doesn't mean I said "Michigan doesn't have a chance in this game." I predicted a 23-17 win for OSU, which could have swung on a couple field goals or a lone touchdown. If I predicted the Mavs to win a 7-game series in the NBA Finals, does that mean I said the Celtics have no chance to win the series? Come on, man.
Yes that is reasonable of course but there's a larger point that is relevant to TE's 3-6 as well.
DeleteMy comments relate to the position as a whole and the uncertainty on the depth chart. It's about the team, the position, more than the individual.
I can tell you with extremely high confidence and near total certainty that Brandon Mann and Peter Simmons the 3rd are not going to be playing meaningful snaps against OSU. I cannot tell you that about Hogan Hansen or Noah Howes. The TE depth chart is too thin and unproven for that. One of them is probably going to play some meaningful downs and how well they play could be very significant.
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As for the true freshman part -- there's a lot of uncertainty there too.
DJ Waller was a true freshman (according to every recruiting ranking) the second best freshman CB in Michigan's class of 2023. That didn't matter and it didn't change the fact that he was an ankle twist away from playing in the national championship game as a true freshman.
You put Waller at 112 and Jayire Hill at 55 -- but Waller was the better player as a freshman and Hill played half as many snaps and was lower on the depth chart. It wasn't a bad ranking for Hill -- but it was for Waller, because DB, like TE, is a position where you need a bunch of guys to play meaningful downs and so the lower levels of the depth chart are more meaningful than a place like QB or RB or PK where only the top 1 or 2 matter.
Most true freshman are going to do very little. Especially if they aren't blue chip recruits. Most true freshman face very long odds to playing time if their positions have solid depth. The depth chart they are stepping into plays a huge factor, which is why guys like Waller and Semaj Morgan were true freshman contributors last year -- DB and WR were not loaded positions.
Meanwhile top 200 recruits like Etta and Cabana did not play. There was tons of depth on DL and RB -- way beyond whatever we might need. So that has an affect on their importance to the team.
And again, even at Waller and Morgan's positions there were much higher ranked guys so guessing which of these freshman are ready and which are not is a fool's errand. Looking at the positional depth is a lot more clear -- because we have a lot more info about the veteran players on the depth chart.
I would not bet on Hogan Hansen being an impact player. But one of these TEs you are in the process of ranking too low is going to be. The easy "fix" is to rank them higher to acknowledge that reality.
It's your countdown, I'm just telling you my opinion and pointing out some recent year realities when it comes to who plays when it matters and how much.
"Maybe I just know, as a football coach, that I can take someone who's 6'5" and 250-ish pounds and turn him into a serviceable piece who can go in and play 5-10 snaps as long as he has a certain baseline of strength and athleticism"
DeleteMaybe you can but you can't do it overnight and Harbaugh hasn't done it overnight either. You've got to build those guys up over time. Honigford moved after his senior year from OL to TE and then spent 2 seasons at TE. Carter Selzer spent 4 years being a typical fringe walk on and then earned a scholarship in years 5 and 6 while playing in 28 games those last 2 seasons. Beetham was a senior last year.
Those guys got built up over years! Which is cause for hope if you're worried about Klein, but not sufficient if Klein can't also be a skilled receiver because Michigan can't only have Loveland be the only receiving threat at TE.
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And guess what -- if you're the head coach of Michigan -- you can also turn somebody that was probably all-state as a high school RB into a serviceable RB for 10-15 snaps a game. Dunlap, Gash, Mullings, Stokes -- you got a half dozen of those at Michigan at all times. You can throw somebody in there to be an effective short yardage RB too - Kerridge, Houma, Hill, Mason, Mullings have all done this job effectively. You don't need a 3rd RB to be able to do all the things a 1st RB has to do either.
@ Lank 3:28 p.m.
Delete@ Lank 3:28 p.m.
I really just don't care. You're not getting it. I can go back and look at any prediction or any NFL Draft and say, "Look, this 6th rounder should have been drafted higher!" or "You should have predicted the Lions would go 12-5 instead of 9-8!" or whatever.
Yes, D.J. Waller was under-ranked at #112. I don't care. I'm ranking 130 players, a large portion of whom haven't taken meaningful snaps in college, let alone at Michigan. Because whenever you gripe about rankings, you ignore the fact that guys like Ja'Den McBurrows (#41), Keshaun Harris (#53), Kody Jones (#67), Myles Pollard (#69), etc. were ranked above him.
I don't think Hansen is going to make a big impact this year, and even if he plays, I don't think the drop-off between Hansen and other replacements is going to be significant. If you think that's wrong...that's your opinion. Maybe it will be right. Maybe not.
We have this discussion every year, with you getting worked up about someone in the 100s and me saying "I don't care." But you still want me to care after like 10 years of making the same arguments.
If you want to make your own list and start your own blog and have everyone worship you for being right about everything, go ahead and try it.
Oh...and I also had Amorion Walker at #32, who was anointed by Jim Harbaugh in the off-season as "a starter" but who turned out not to be very good. So did I undervalue cornerbacks when I had 4 of them in the top 32 players (Will Johnson, Josh Wallace, Mike Sainristil, Amorion Walker)? Or was it just that I whiffed on Walker?
DeleteDo I not get credit for ranking Keshaun Harris higher than Waller? After all, Harris started more games, played more snaps, and had a higher PFF grade than Waller.
Nah...D.J. Waller was ranked #112, so Thunder doesn't value cornerbacks!
I actually think it's kind of funny that I'm being accused of undervaluing tight ends and cornerbacks and that the 2023 countdown is being used as evidence. In the top 44 players (so basically the two-deep), I included...
Delete4 guys who played some form of TE (Loveland, Barner, Hibner, Jones)
5 guys who played some form of CB (Wallace, Sainristil, W. Johnson, McBurrows, Walker)
and 3 more non-starting defensive backs who fit as third safeties/nickel players (Sabb, Berry, Q. Johnson)
But because I "mis-ranked" specific guys who were #112 and #115 in the countdown, I don't value their positions, I don't value blocking and catching, etc.
I think you're dodging the point I'm making here Thunder. Yes, these rankings are never going to be spot on. nobody owns a crystal ball. Nobody expects perfection and nobody can achieve it.
DeleteThe point here is not about individual examples (like Waller or Beetham), it's about some systematic and consistent issues with the countdown for TE. The rankings of the group (repeated below) are the point here, not the individuals.
RB ranks :
First 4: 6, 13, 38, 47
TE ranks:
First 4: 16, 22, 37, 46
RB ranks :
Next 4: 51, 59, 80, 84, 99
TE ranks:
First 4: 77, 81, 90, 115
TE is 2 positions in the Harbaguh O. RB is 1. TE requires more people to play meaningful downs, whether people are healthy or not healthy. Yet you treat RB as substantially more important.
Why are there FOUR RBs in the top 50 (basically the two deep once you factor in special teams) and only four TEs?
DB is similar. See below. Again, Nobody is expecting you to get every guy right -- but maybe it's OK to ask if consistently ranking RBs way too high might be something to reconsider.
------------------------------------------------------------
"whenever you gripe about rankings, you ignore the fact that guys like Ja'Den McBurrows (#41), Keshaun Harris (#53), Kody Jones (#67), Myles Pollard (#69), etc. were ranked above him."
Not ignored at all. See the breakdown of TEs above. Even if you put Waller "correctly" into one of those higher spots like 53 -- he would have been too low. He played 120 snaps. Harris and McBurrows played around 160. Semaj Morgan (WR4) played 140. Kaleel Mullings (RB3) played 87. You ranked the skill position guys too high, even when you get the order right.
You have an instance here of your DB number whatever it was playing more than a bunch of skill position guys you put higher up. The MEANINGFUL snap count would reflect the same story.
"did I undervalue cornerbacks when I had 4 of them in the top 32"
Yes - absolutely, you did.
That's 3 starting spots that should be in the top 25 by default. With a history of need to rotate more guys through. You put a backup RB in your top 13 and the 4th corner 32nd -- consider if that might be backwards. You put 4 WR in the top 29 -- that's 2 positions while corner/nickel is 3. Is a depth WR more important than a guy rotation through starter-level snaps? I don't think it is.
You put 6 DBs in your top 32. That's 5 starting spots, with a rotation regularly demanding a minimum of 8. Moreover, the season is going to likely be demanding 10 or more. The 3rd TE was ranked 37 -- right next to the 3rd RB, a far smaller role.
---------------------------------------------------------
I don't view it as a gripe so much as constructive criticism. But that's how you see it, so I'll shut up.
@ Lank 5:00 p.m.
DeleteI've already explained to you the difference between RB and TE. If you disagree, that's fine.
I consider it griping because you don't just voice your opinion and say "Do with my opinion what you will." You write gobs and gobs of information, while also throwing in information that you dismiss when I use it for my own purposes (recruiting rankings 5 years later, etc.). You make mountains out of molehills on the regular.
I understand your point. You've made it 15 times in this discussion alone.
I disagree.
I immediately acknowledged and agreed with your point about not bringing up recruiting rankings and backed off, saying yes- recruiting rankings weren't very relevant. You don't agree so you're bringing it up again.
DeleteIf you understand the point - don't argue about a different point. Which is what you did when you talk about some number of other DBs you had higher than Waller and other TEs higher than Beetham). You intimated that having 4 DBs in the top 32 was obviously NOT underranking DBs.
All that tells me you don't get my point -- so I clarified and reworded.
Colonel Jessup thinks something about the truth.
@ Lank 11:06 p.m.
DeleteWhat you're not grasping is that if I think - and you don't HAVE to agree - that there are numerous people on the roster who can do a similar level of job without a significant drop-off, then the whole position group gets downgraded. The #4 TE isn't that important if I think the #5 and #6 and #7 and #8 TE can go in there and do a similar job.
You don't HAVE to agree that I think Michigan can get decent production - blocking or receiving - from other guys on the roster. We've seen Michigan move all kinds of guys around to get TE/FB production, from Ben Mason to Ben VanSumeren to Henry Poggi to Khalid Hill to Joel Honigford to Trente Jones to Tom Strobel to Jared Wangler...and obviously that doesn't include guys who were brought to Michigan to actually play those positions.
It's fine if you disagree. The problem is that you have to assert your disagreement over and over and over and over again and try to convince me that I'm wrong.
I'm grasping it just fine. I just don't agree. And I don't think you have the evidence to back it up. Especially if you're going to cite TCU.
DeleteI think what you are saying is true at FB. Somewhat true at RB. Rarely true at TE. I think the evidence backs this up.
Your examples include only ONE person who played as an in-line TE (Honigford). He didn't do it until he moved positions full time, changed his body, and graduated. He spent 3 or 4 years on the OL to get to point where he could see meaningful playing time, and then had to transition to be a full-time TE after that, in years 5 and 6.
In other words, Honigford is like Hassan Haskins or Mike Sainristil. Doesn't mean you can throw random OL in at TE anymore than it means you can throw random LB in at RB or random WR in at DB.
You don't have to agree with me. When I say "I'll shut up" you can just say "Good", or not respond, or disable comments to mirror your other platform.
If you think I'm a troll you can just delete my comments like you've done before. Or ignore them. But you're electing to respond with an argument I'm making. In this case, one that doesn't tell me you understand and acknowledge what I'm saying. I think I extend you that respect.
It's your blog - you can do whatever you want. Including not agreeing with me.
@ Lank 12:41 p.m.
DeleteSo we're just going to ignore Trente Jones playing 82 snaps as a tight end last year? We're going to ignore Henry Poggi starting as a tight end back in 2015? Plus Honigford?
I guess if you ignore all my examples and then make excuses for why Honigford shouldn't really count (he changed his body!), then you're right.
If you take away all of Jim Harbaugh's wins against Ohio State, he had zero wins against Ohio State.
Silly me! I forgot an even more glaring example of when Michigan turned QB/WR Zach Gentry into a starting tight end and NFL draft pick.
DeleteQB Zach Gentry >>> TE Zach Gentry
OT Trente Jones >>> TE Trente Jones
DE Tom Strobel >>> TE Tom Strobel
DT Henry Poggi >>> TE Henry Poggi
OG Joel Honigford >>> TE Joel Honigford
And that list doesn't even include walk-ons or fullbacks. So basically Jim Harbaugh turned random dudes into tight ends every other year, but I'm supposed to sit here and admit that I'm wrong when I say random dudes can be turned into tight ends.
How many guys get to the NFL and move from WR to TE? Or QB to TE? Or basketball player to TE? There are several examples.
How many guys get to the NFL and move from another position to RB? Uhhhh...not many at all. In fact, the only example I can think of is Antonio Gibson, who was a WR at Memphis and got drafted as a RB by the Washington Redskins/Football Team/Commanders.
Please continue to tell me that tight ends can't be created but running backs can...
LB Hassan Haskins >>>> RB Hassan Haskins
DeleteLB Kaleel Mullings >>>> RB Kaleel Mullings
FB Sione Houma >>>>> RB SIone Houma
TE/FB/DL Ben Mason >>>>>> short yardage RB Ben Mason
TE Khalid Hill >>> short yardage RB Khalid Hill
And that list doesn't even include walk-ons or guys who moved back to defense. So basically Jim Harbaugh turned random dudes into RBs whenever he wanted and I'm supposed to sit here and admit that I'm wrong when I say random dudes can be turned into running backs.
"How many guys get to the NFL and move from another position to RB? Uhhhh...not many at all. In fact, the only example I can think of is Antonio Gibson"
It seems some people already forgotten about Hassan Haskins. Too bad for him.
Please continue to tell me that running backs can't be created by tight ends can....
We've talked about Trente Jones several times. You keep repeating your point (notable!) and ignoring what I say. Trente Jones played as a 6th OL - he did not go out for a pass a single time, or run a route. Most of the time when Michigan uses a 6th OL there are other TE on the field.
Delete3rd WR does not equal TE. 6th OL does not equal TE. This has been covered, not ignored. You don't have to agree with me, but maybe you should agree with Jim Harbaugh. Who started Trente Jones at RT a few months ago. Not at TE. He started Joel Honigford at TE not OL. But only after he changed his body and changed positions, like Haskins, or Sainristil.
OT Trente Jones >>> OT Trente Jones
Try again.
We've talked about Honigford several times. Honigford counts as a TE. He doesn't count as an example of " Michigan can put a #85 jersey on Tristan Bounds and he can go out there and play tight end". Because he didn't do that. He spent 4 years in the system developing as a blocker (at OL) and then moved to TE over an offseason for his 5th year. If you want to quibble to say it happened in the 2020 offseason instead of 2021 -- the same point still stands. YEARS in the system developing his blocking, and THEN shifting to TE.
DeleteWe haven't talked about Poggi. Poggi also moved to TE over an offseason when Harbaugh came in an needed bodies at the position in 2015. So start with the fact that it was a transition year pre-Portal. Even so, let's check on the 2 games where Poggi was a starter at TE.
DeleteThe first was Utah, the first game of Harbaugh's michigan coaching career: Here's Mgoblog's summary of the personnel group:
"Henry Poggi got the most time as an H-back; Kerridge was your traditional fullback. Williams got the most time other than Butt as an inline TE. We saw a little bit of Hill and Bunting."
So...not an in-line TE, not an inexperienced young player, not a random walk-on type, and.... not a good TE.
Here is Mgoblog's take on his second and last start at TE against Northwestern in November.
"Blocking is hard and defenses will game you for this reason. The only guy who is really, really consistent at identifying "opponent is slanting so I should do this" is Glasgow. Surprise—he and AJ Williams are the only seniors on the front. Poggi is behind."
Poggi spent all of 2016 playing FB. He was shoe-horned in at TE in 2015, back when Harbaugh had FB as a separate position and needed bodies at TE, and.... it didn't work out too well! Of course, you'll harp on Deveon Smith all day and blame a guy who was good enough to play RB in the NFL as the problem while ignoring the fact that TE didn't have enough bodies (Butt, Williams, and cross your fingers after that) to execute the Harbaugh offense.
Again, if you are going to lump all these guys together you can note how important the position is. They played, in Harbaugh's very first game, SIX GUYS at the position group. WR was FOUR. RB was TWO with a couple of snaps from 2 others. This was true in 2015 and true in 2023. This is Harbaugh's identity. He loves TEs. This isn't hard.
DeleteThe guys you have a highlighted were a backup who was already blocking well enough to play as an OL and dropped 30 pounds to change positions as a senior and grad, a highly rated DL recruit who got moved to FB but played TE in a pinch when the depth chart was challenged in year 0, and...Tom Strobel for some reason? A guy who didn't play any meaningful downs at any position, let alone TE.
So again, none of these guys are very good examples of throwing an 85 on Bounds (a rando 3-star recruit who has played 5 games over 3 years) and having him be an effective TE. Not even for a few snaps. That's not what Harbaugh has done anymore than he throws random WR at CB and expects them to be able to execute Jessie Minter's defense. You can do anything you want against Bowling Green, but not in a bowl game or against TCU -- that's only true for RB.
Can people move to TE from other positions? Yes - like RB. Or any other position where position changes have happened.
You can't just throw random guys in at TE whenever you want though. Sorry. It's not the most important position on the field, it's near the bottom with RB, but whatever argument you are making that it's fine if you throw randos in there at TE doesn't hold water in a Harbaugh offense.
Certainly not compared to RB where it seems that FBs like Houma, Mason, and HIll have been productive ball carriers when sliding down to RB (especially in short yardage) and position switchers from LB have turned into solid #3, #2, and #1 options at various points.
So yeah, just throw an 85 on Bounds, no problemo, as long as you are also going to say no problemo at throwing at 23 on Jason Hewlett or Christian Boivin and letting them get a some snaps at RB against OSU.
@ Lank 4:11 p.m.
DeleteWait...so your examples of position-switchers to running back are...
- Hassan Haskins, who rushed 255 times for 2,197 yards and 31 touchdowns as a senior in high school?
- Kalel (not Kaleel, as you continuously assert) Mullings, who scored 22 touchdowns as a senior in high school?
- Sione Houma, who ran for over 2,000 yards in high school?
- Ben Mason, who ran the ball 80 times for 719 yards and 11 touchdowns as a senior in high school?
- and Khalid Hill, who (I'll admit) said he hadn't played in the backfield since he was 10.
Congratulations. You have one position-switcher there in Khalid Hill.
Honestly, this is just an extremely disingenuous argument if we're talking about Hassan Haskins as a position-switcher to running back after he ran for almost 2,200 yards as a senior, but because Michigan tried him out at linebacker as a true freshman in 2018 when they had a loaded backfield, now his "position switch" is equated to 4-star quarterback Zach Gentry moving to tight end.
You're worried about who's going to take Josh Beetham's 61 snaps in 2024 and saying Henry Poggi wasn't very good as a starter back in 2015...
...Beetham had a 39.9 PFF grade in 2023 while only playing against weak opponents! Like, what are we even talking about here?
It's just silly at this point. Yeesh. I gave you Zach Gentry's transformation, and you came back with Hassan Haskins...
@ Lank 4:29 p.m.
DeleteFact check time:
You said Michigan played 6 tight ends in Harbaugh's first game. Survey says...FALSE. They played 5: Butt, Poggi, Williams, Bunting, Hill.
You said Michigan played 4 wide receivers in Harbaugh's first game. Survey says...FALSE. They played 5: Darboh, Chesson, Perry, Cole, Harris.
You said Michigan played 2 running backs in Harbaugh's first game (and a couple other guys with a couple snaps) - LOL - so basically you said Michigan played 4 running backs. Survey says...TRUE. They played 4: Smith, Isaac, Green, Douglas.
You're probably using MGoBlog's UFR, which says "Green and Taylor-Douglas got a few snaps each" when it comes to running back...
...but I notice you didn't minimize similarly when it came to tight end, because the same UFR says "We saw a little bit of Hill and Bunting."
PFF didn't exist back then to get exact numbers, but Bunting got a "DNC" for Did Not Chart and Hill earned a -0.5. Meanwhile, Green and Taylor-Douglas both got a "DNC." Yet somehow Harbaugh played SIX (6!!!!!!! SHOUT IT FROM THE ROOFTOPS!!!!!!) tight ends and just two (I wish I could make the font smaller) running backs, even though there were another two running backs who played, but you don't want to acknowledge them so you'll just say two and hope we look past it...
Honestly, Lank, it's just kind of sad to see you fudging numbers and making such obvious attempts to distort the truth to win an argument about a freshman tight end who's not even the best tight end in his class (according to the recruiting rankings). I used to at least think we could have honest disagreements, but the falsehoods in this thread - Hassan Haskins is a position-switcher from linebacker, fake numbers, etc. - are kind of ruining my trust.
And that doesn't even cover the odd concern about the absence of a walk-on tight end that most Michigan fans don't even know who posted a 39.9 PFF grade against teams who were being blown out. Remember when Darko Milicic got drafted by the Pistons but he sucked, so he only played late minutes in blowouts and everyone called him the "Human Victory Cigar"? I guess you were probably the one guy who was worried about how the Pistons were going to maintain their success once Darko and his 1.5 points per game got traded to the Magic in 2005-2006...
Georgia Tech fans are eating up this thread and thinking they got a hell of a steal landing Beetham as a transfer from Michigan.
It's almost as if the nickname is fitting
Delete2015 Utah: Kerridge played FB. Are we counting that in the TE group or not? Quibble all you want - Michigan used more TEs than RBs -- from day 1 of the Harbaugh regime. Even if you take all your arguments as correct - which they are not - 5 is more than 4.
Delete2022 TCU: 3 RBs were used counting 1 snap from Dunlap. 5 TEs were used (Schoonmaker, Honigford, Hibner, Bredeson, Loveland) not counting 6th OL snaps from Jones and El Hadi or the FB snap from Mullings. 5 is more than 3.
So, par for the course, you're here to quibble about the argument, and you obtusely reiterate a fake argument that this is about Hansen (or Beetham? LOL) even when I explicitly say it isn't. All because you want to deflect from the overall point.
That is this indisputable fact:
Michigan has needed and used more TEs than RBs in the Harbaugh era. They did in 2015. They did in 2023.
--------------------------------------------
That use of TEs is what one might call the quintessential characteristic of "Harball".
You seem to think 1 proven TE is enough, I disagree. So has Jim Harbaugh -- that's why he got AJ Barner.
Klein is an absolutely critical player for 2024 IMO, and if he's not up to a job that's just as, if not more important than RB2, well then Michigan is going to probably be relying on walk-ons or young guys who aren't ready for all the duties of the TE position, and thus they'll probably have to adapt the playcalling to limitations in personnel. To you that's a BIG problem for the RB spot, but at TE, meh.
You think any old walk-on can come in and play TE anytime, I disagree. You think any old OL can play TE anytime, I disagree.
You're underrating TEs and you'll continue to underrate TEs until such time as the offense goes back to something that look more like Rich Rodrigeuz than Jim Harbaugh.
But hey, we either trust the coaches or we don't and since you don't trust Jim Harbaugh to make smart personnel decisions I guess you don't trust him to make good schematic decisions either. Trust your gut. Don't let facts or results stand in the way. The calendar still says 1992 on it! Don't believe your eyes.
"Kalel (not Kaleel, as you continuously assert)"
DeleteLOL. My lazy error is an "assertion" in Thunder's world. Yes, Thunder, you got me. I am confidently stating as a fact that Mullings name is actually something different here. You really got me.
"You're worried about who's going to take Josh Beetham's 61 snaps in 2024 "
DeleteYou don't want to have an honest debate so you have to invent these strawmen to argue with. I'll clarify even though you'll duck and lie.
I'm mostly worried about collectively who is going to take Barner's 627 snaps, Beetham's 60 snaps, and Hibner's 32 snaps.
Where are those 700 snaps coming from? Are you assuming perfect health? Are you assuming guys who have done squat are suddenly able to play a big role. Are you pretending that FBs and OL can replace AJ Barner's comprehensive skillset. Are you willing to pretend walk-ons can perform on par with NFL draft choices here, but not at RB?
I don't expect you to answer that. Let's pretend it's all about Hogan Hansen instead. Let's talk about Ross Taylor Douglass! [Let me assert that his name has two s's, just for fun. <--- let's talk about this too]
These are clowny and corny arguments - no wonder the je93 account has your back.
"Honestly, this is just an extremely disingenuous argument if we're talking about Hassan Haskins as a position-switcher to running back"
DeleteYou're arguing with a 100% true fact.
Was HH a LB at Michigan? Yes.
Did he play RB as a freshman? No.
Did he switch from LB to RB? Yes.
I made no claims about his high school career one way or the other. He played both sides in high school - crazy I know. Unprecedented!
Maybe we should tell Mike Sainristil that sorry, he doesn't count as a position-switcher to Thunder since he played DB in high school. Sainristil claims to have switched from offense to defense. Clearly Mike Sainristil is a LIAR!
@ Lank 3:18 p.m.
DeleteIf you're mostly worried about who's going to take Barner's snaps, then a post about the 6'5", 230 lb. second-best true freshman tight end in the class is probably not the place. And bringing up Josh Beetham is probably not relevant.
The relevant discussions probably revolve around Klein, Prieskorn, Tonielli, Marshall, etc.
Like I said...disingenuous.
@ Lank 8:05 p.m.
DeleteHassan Haskins was listed as a running back all four years he was on campus. He never played linebacker in a game. You're basing "He was a linebacker" on practice reports. He could have played linebacker for a week or two in practice, and now he's a position-switch success story!
Hassan Haskins lined up at QB some; he was never a QB. Sean McKeon lined up at RB once in a game; he was never a RB.
Did Haskins switch positions from QB? Did McKeon switch positions from RB? At least they played those positions in games.
Like I said...disingenuous. These aren't real arguments.
"If you're mostly worried about who's going to take Barner's snaps, then a post about the 6'5", 230 lb. second-best true freshman tight end in the class is probably not the place. And bringing up Josh Beetham is probably not relevant"
DeleteIt is very relevant. The uncertainty near the top of the depth chart affects the relevance of guys at the bottom.
Josh Beethum was ahead of Klein, Prieskorn, Tonielli, Marshall, etc. last year. If he was on the roster, could/would be penciled in as the #3 option at TE, until such time as a younger guy proved to surge past him.
You might as well say K.Mullings is not very relevant because Michigan has younger more talented RBs projected to surge ahead of him.
You also keep asserting that Hansen below other freshman is a given, even though that's not how things work with freshman.
Just because you don't agree with the logic doesn't make it disingenuous.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Haskins
Delete"In his redshirt freshman year, Haskins agreed to move to defense to play linebacker. In 2019, with the graduation of Karan Higdon and the suspension of Chris Evans, Haskins moved back to running back to improve the depth at the position."
https://www.maizenbrew.com/football/2020/6/4/21277083/hassan-haskins-michigan-football-running-back-2020-outlook
"Perhaps seeing an easier path to playing time elsewhere, he quickly transitioned to the linebacking group, although he only saw time on special teams (and was able to keep his redshirt). With both Hidgon and Evans not on the roster heading into 2019, he flipped back to his original position, but was still pretty low on the depth chart. Basically no one expected anything from Haskins last season. He started the year with five uneventful games before blowing up against Illinois. The converted linebacker took his first carry 29 yards to the house to open the scoring and ended the day with 125 total yards. He would see double-digit carries in six of the seven remaining contests and was often the first running back into the game."
The only argument that is disingenuous... is yours. Haskins did not play QB. Just as Trente Jones did not play TE. Sean McKeon did not play RB. Jon Navarre did not play WR.
Haskins was a LB at Michigan. Fact. He changed positions at Michigan. Fact.
@ Lank
DeleteLOL
lmao, DESPERATE!
DeleteFrom his official bio:
Deletehttps://mgoblue.com/sports/football/roster/hassan-haskins/21992
No mention of linebacker or even defense. But hey, let's lean on some fan website reporting that coaches tinker with ideas and players in camp & practice - especially freshmen ... not a surprise for those who know the game, but for the ignorant it may be confusing. For those challenged in the matter of integrity, it's an opportunity for misinformation
@ je93 8:43 p.m.
DeleteGiles Jackson is listed at WR but lines up at RB a few times? He's a RB.
Hassan Haskins is listed at RB and lined up at QB sometimes? He was a RB and LB but never a QB!
No consistency whatsoever. Just uses whatever ammo is available at the moment, regardless of whether it makes logical sense or whether others are "allowed" to use the same type of logic.
@Thunder
DeleteYou're still making up fake arguments.
Giles Jackson was always a WR, just not a very good one, and nobody argued otherwise. Because hybrid players exist and you can be both a WR and a RB.
Hassan Haskins didn't play QB, and nobody argued he could play QB, and he didn't spend any time in the QB room in practice or film study. LB is a different story.
It makes perfect sense to say Trente Jones wasn't a TE and Hassan Haskins wasn't a QB. It makes perfect sense to say Giles Jackson was a RB, Mike Sainristil was a DB, and Hassan Haskins was a LB. These are very commonly accepted things.
You just disagree.
You want to insist that logical consistency means Jon Navarre was a WR just as Mike Sainristil was a DB. No cleaner way to put it than this -- That is stupid.
@ Lank 11:29 a.m.
DeleteWell, it looks like we have a bona fide insider here. Now we know that Hassan Haskins didn't spend any time with the QBs in practice or film study. He just played the position on the field.
But Giles Jackson did spend time with the running backs in practice and the film room because...Lank is an insider and knows these things.
But also, Mike Sainristil was listed at both WR and DB on the roster. Which is very clear evidence that he played both.
But Haskins was listed at RB every year he was on campus. But he was a position-switch from LB.
And to bring this back to baseline...Michigan has taken a variety of types of players and converted them to tight end (QB, OL, LB, DT, etc.), but they took high school running backs and made them into running backs. And now we're saying QB, OL, LB, DT, etc. are more difficult to turn into tight ends than RB are to turn into RB.
Thank you for the clarification.
Yes, an appropriate word here is "stupid" but not for the reasons you think.
sounds like someone doesn't understand the game. Not "stupid" but uninformed
Delete"now we're saying QB, OL, LB, DT, etc. are more difficult to turn into tight ends than RB are to turn into RB."
DeleteLook how far you've gone off the rails. Nobody is saying this. LOL.
The actual argument here, not your fake one you've invented, is that people from other positions can fill a role to fill out the depth chart.
You acknowledge it at TE, and WR, but for some reason not RB (despite Hill, Houma, Mason, Haskins, and yes...Jackson, who was RB3 in that bowl game against Alabama).
The other part of the argument is that walk-ons can fill a role to fill out the depth chart too. You acknowledge it at TE, but not a RB (despite the recent example of Gash filling in for a come from behind victory over an elite defense with our top 2 guys out, Tru Wilson, and Leon Franklin to name a few.)
You think you can throw a different number on a guy and have a viable TE. I don't. It hasn't happened. But Kaleel Mullings did flip from being LB his entire college career to being a productive RB for the last game of the 2022 regular season.
I'm sure find these facts disingenuous, depending on whatever flip-flopping logic you want to use.
Joe Milton move to TE in the NFL, a position he's never played before -- No Problemo! He's basically the right size, just change his number. Tristan Bounds has never played TE before either -- I'm sure he'll do great! But throw some LB or FB or H-back in at RB, the least important position on the offensive side of the ball, and we have a disaster on our hands! We need 5 RBs at all times or we'll die!
Stupid is the appropriate word here indeed. For exactly the reasons you think, just not the place you think.
How do you differentiate Navarre at WR compared to HH at QB?
DeleteThese are not position changes Thunder!
You should be embarrassed by this argument.
Giles Jackson was a RB in high school, ran the ball a lot out of the slot, and then was used a conventional RB in bowl game. All of that led me to say he COULD be part of the RB rotation next year and had high upside there. It never led me to say he is now a RB he is no longer a WR. It was speculation about what could happen ( a full time move) , based on what did happen (him playing RB not only in HS but in college).
You've decided to equate my speculation about what role Jackson could have to your denial that Haskins spent his freshman year as a linebacker and then changed positions to RB.
There's no inconsistency here. If you want to speculate the HH could be a good LB - have at it! He's not doing much as a RB in the NFL, so maybe that's a better path. LOL
I gave you links that specifically refer to HH being a position changer. You gave one that doesn't say anything about his position freshman year at all. These are equal? LOL. You're in denial buddy.
It's very clear -- You can't handle the truth.
@ Lank 2:53 p.m.
DeleteYou completely missed the point. You're either too entrenched in your position to realize it or you're not smart enough to figure it out. But I do think you're an intelligent person, so it must be the former.
@Anon, ignorance makes sense here. Dude doesn't know the game
Delete@Thunder, being wordy is not a sign of intelligence. An intelligent person can apply introspection and understand when they're wrong
@Lank, you're just lying. Your "link" was a fan site reporting that a TRFr 3star RB was practicing at LB. The University bio for HH still listed him as a RB. He took ZERO snaps on defense. Overlooking this fact to misrepresent history is just another example of why your are LyinLank
*but he also took snaps in practice and in LIVE games at QB ... under your skewed logic, this makes him a "playmaking QB" CLOWN WORLD
@Thunder
DeleteMgoblue does not contradict the two links that note Haskins played LB as a freshman. Which he did. Factually. In real life. Here's another article about it.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2019/10/14/michigan-football-hassan-haskins-linebacker-running-back/3976120002/
"At this time last year, Hassan Haskins was playing defense."
"Khaleke Hudson, who mentored Haskins on defense, agrees."
"Haskins appears to have impressed in his short time on defense. Hudson praised his instincts, speed and coverage ability while also saying Haskins displayed "great twitch.""
And here's yet another news article:
https://www.michigandaily.com/sports/football/running-back-linebacker-and-back-again-haskins-making-most-opportunities/
"Harbaugh called him in for a meeting and told him that instead of playing running back, where he was recruited, his best fit was at linebacker. But after a season of learning how to play viper, Haskins switched back to his original position."
"Hudson sees how much Haskins’ experience on the other side helped his vision. But he also made sure to add that Haskins was “great in man coverage” and “could definitely come back and play on the defensive side of the ball” if Michigan ever needed him."
Finally, some quotes from HH himself via another news article
"“I knew he is capable of knowing what people do best,” Haskins said. “So I just came in with the linebackers and did my job.”
Moving back and forth, Haskins said, has given him an advantage as an offensive player — the ability to play with a defensive mindset.
“I'm glad I did that,” Haskins said. “I see how the two different things add up.”
https://www.toledoblade.com/sports/michigan/2019/10/14/michigan-running-back-hassan-haskins-lessons-defensive-stink-linebacker-improve-offense/stories/20191014144
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It seems like some position changes count to you Thunder, and others don't depending on whatever you feel applies. RB gets one set of rules and other positions get another. But par for the course.
Navarre wasn't a WR. Haskins wasn't a QB.
Sainristil was a WR. Haskins was a LB.
Not hard. Very simple actually.
It's complicated only if you want to twist the facts. Or as jelly says "lie" about it. Nobody is fooled except the fool.
Mgoblue bio doesn't list Ben Mason's position as RB, just like they didn't list Haskins playing LB.
Deletehttps://mgoblue.com/sports/football/roster/ben-mason/21349
Here's a bunch of highlights of him playing RB (and FB and Defense
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeStS-mitDs
"He was always a RB" is a dishonest argument. Especially for somebody who says Giles Jackson getting carries from the slot are immaterial to his potential as a RB.
@ Lank 6:39 p.m.
DeleteThere's no consistency to your argument. If Giles Jackson was a RB, then Hassan Haskins was a QB. Both of them played multiple snaps at a position that was not their original position.
If we're talking about John Navarre at WR...let's be honest, we all know he wasn't a WR. But if the only questions is whether he ever lined up at the position, well...I guess that would count. But that's not real.
All of this is glossing over the idea that Michigan has taken several non-tight ends and converted them to tight end.
Michigan has only taken one non-running back and converted him to tight end, and that was TE Khalid Hill, who was a short yardage back only who averaged like 2.0 yards/carry. Kalel Mullings, Hassan Haskins, Ben Mason, etc. played running back up through their senior years of high school.
Zach Gentry was never a TE but he got to the NFL. Joel Honigford was never a TE but he got invited to NFL camp. We see it all over college/NFL where guys who never played TE before (Antonio Gates, Blake Bell, Jimmy Graham, etc.) make it as tight ends and play really well. Gates and Graham are Hall of Fame-level tight ends.
As far as I know, there are zero instances of safeties or quarterbacks or whatever moving from their position and then becoming good running backs at the NFL level.
Lying or ignorant? A fullback lines up in the backfield, primarily as a lead blocker but (esp under *Harball*) sometimes as a ball carrier ... Fullback, not unlike "Tailback" or "Halfback" = Running Back, under the same position coach and in the same position room
Delete*trust the coaches
It's YOU who is being inconsistent Thunder. If you're going to insist that Ben Mason and Sione Houma were always RB because they played it in high school -- how can you insist that Giles Jackson isn't a RB when he played it in high school?
DeleteAgain you are dodging the point with a goofy contortion. I speculated that Giles Jackson could move to RB fulltime I did not ever deny that Giles Jackson was a WR - I said he wasn't a very good one. Being a WR and being a RB are not mutually exclusive. A point covered repeatedly in this space - with multiple examples at college and NFL level, yet a distinction you insist upon asserting as fact - to my statements, and to the roster.
Don Edwards regularly lining up out wide illustrates that. So do a host of other examples in college and NFL that I've brought up before. It's not a bug, it's a feature. As it would have been if Jackson had evolved into a Giles Jackson/Isiah Gash type of rotational RB after the Alabama game.
Giles Jackson playing WR and RB in the same game is no different than Ben Mason playing FB and RB and H-back in the same game or Charles Woodson playing WR and CB in the same game. It IS different than Haskins or Mullings or Peppers lining up in a wildcat or Navarre catching a pass.
Me saying Giles Jackson has upside at RB is no different than saying Onwenu has upside at DL. Both played those spots -- the difference is that Onwenu is awesome at OL and Jackson is a career backup WR averaging 17 receptions a year to 6 carries a year in college.
I'm saying you insisted that Onwenu was a DL not OL. It was a just a move that didn't make sense because Onwenu was so good at OL.
So. back to the point -- Haskins at QB is NOT the same as Jackson at RB. At all.
I've already listed why but I'll repeat it. Haskins didn't play QB in high school nor did he play QB at Michigan. Neither did Jabrill Peppers.
Let's be honest, we all know Navarre wasn't a WR <--- I agree 100%
DeleteLet's be honest, we all know Haskins wasn't a QB.<--- pretty sure you agree
But Giles Jackson DID play RB. He was RB3 against Alabama. He took a bunch of snaps there. He practiced there. As a WR he carried the ball effectively and caught the ball effectively and blocked - executing most of the basic duties of the position from another position. He played RB in high school. etc.
Back to the point, which you know, but won't agree with because you're too entrenched in your mindset (QB = pass, RB = run, TE = block, WR = catch, the end)...
DeleteMichigan has played guys who were not classified as RBs by most people -- including you! -- yet used them very effectively at RB. This is through a combination of in-game positional versatility (Mason) and more long-term position-changes (Haskins). This also includes NFL RBs who you thought were WRs that lack RB skills.
https://touch-the-banner.com/chris-evans-wolverine/
At times, Michigan has PREFERRED to use non-RBs at RB. Hill is one example, Giles Jackson is another, you can go back to Denard to see another big one. Can those two be effective at RB? Absolutely -- they were. And the smaller and more specialized the role -- the less relevant their limitations in being able to cover the full range of RB duties (route running, catching, run block, run, blitz pickup, execute PAP fake) and full package of play calls is.
Which is........exactly the same as TE. Yes, you can throw a guy out for a few snaps and just have him block and probably survive fine. Just like at RB. But the position entails a lot more and not just any old body can do the full package very well. RB and TE are same same.
But your philosophy at one spots is night and day from the other.
It's you who is inconsistent.
Here's the example of night and day difference --
Deletehttps://touch-the-banner.com/2019-season-countdown-16-tru-wilson/
This position group had Charbonnet (a blue chip freshman) and Haskins ( a converted LB who you now say was always a RB because he played RB in high school) and you made a top 20 valuation of a walk-on because of how important and unproven the RB room was.
----------------------------
Let's talk about Michigan not the NFL or high school for a minute -- talk about what we've seen at the Harbaugh era. Run through the list of guys playing RB who were not considered, by most people and you, to be conventional RBs who could handle the job full time. Then do the same for TE.
You'll see that position changes, positional flexibility, walk-ons, and unremarkable veterans chipping in late in their careers, are prevalent at both positions. Your contortions on Giles Jackson don't change that basic fact that Michigan can address RB needs without guys most people call RBs. It's suboptimal but very doable. TE is like RB. RB is like TE. You can make other position work but it's not ideal.
----------------------------------------------------
So Michigan is going to enter this season with ONE proven traditional in-line TE. Colston Loveland. The end. The other guys are walk-on full backs, unproven scholarship players.
If this was the situation at RB you would be flipping out. You'd be moving up randos in the countdown -- every viable freshman, career journeyman, walk-on whose high school resume you've scoured for impressive accomplishments, and position-switcher would get a notable place on the countdown due to the epic level of need at the position due to poor recruiting, development, coaching failures etc. Tru Wilson in the top 20 is an example.
==============================
Finally, listen to yourself. Was this a conversation about what it takes to be an NFL RB? Because I was not under that impression.
If you want to go there - Denard was drafted as a RB despite being a QB for his entire career until a senior year elbow injury moved him to RB. Kenneth Gainwell was a QB in high school until moving to RB in college.
Evans was a guy who you called a WR, and put scare quotes around him being a "running back", drafted to be an NFL RB despite very modest production in college. Haskins was a guy who played LB as a freshman, drafted as a RB.
Sorry I don't have any safeties for you. I don't actually care about this point. I'm not aware of safeties who moved to TE in the NFL either.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Position switches happen at RB, for NFL caliber guys AND for back of the rotation contributors and for specialists used in limited role. Just like TE.
I see TE as an issue, because we only have 1 proven guy. You don't because you think anyone can play TE. I don't think RB has ever been an issue at Michigan in my lifetime, and the one season where it looked like it might be (2019), we had 3 guys running for 5 YPC and then Giles Jackson effectively stepping in from WR to round out the room (over the walk-on) for the bowl game, not unlike Kalell Mulling stepping in from LB to round out the room in 2021 after an injury.
--------------------------------------------------------
I think we can be OK at TE if Klein steps up to be a "starting" caliber player. That gives us Loveland, Bredeson, and then you can fill out the rotation with guys like Hawes, 6th OL, 3rd WRs, 2nd RBs, H-backs, FBs, flex TEs like maybe Preiskorn can chip in. But you can use the same logic at backup RB. As long as our superstar starter is there, healthy, able to take on a massive workload, the rest can be sorted out.
Nobody in the 90s or 100s is going to be all that important if everyone is healthy and living up to expectations ahead of them. The question is who might matter if you take off the maize colored buffs.
Did Haskins play QB at all? Even in the Navarre as a WR sense?
DeleteProbably not. He was playing RB in a wildcat set, as far as I recall. I only remember wildcat with Haskins, not any QB plays. Let me know if I"m wrong tho!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wildcat_formation
"The virtue of having a running back take the snap in the wildcat formation is that the rushing play is 11-on-11, although different variations have the running back hand off or throw the football."
"The running back, receiving a direct snap, is a running threat on a variety of designed plays, and has the potential to pass the ball."
I think the following is true:
Haskins wasn't a QB.
No one thinks he was a QB.
He didn't play QB.
Some people confuse Wildcat RB with QB because of the snap and the pass option.
Giles Jackson was a WR and RB.
He did play RB.
Some people didn't think he was a RB because you can't be both a RB and a WR (despite many contrary examples of players being both).
In terms of inexperience at their position before exceptional NFL success - Christian Okoye (NFL HOF RB) didn't play football until 23. Jimmy Graham was a basketball player until 21. Similar to Antonio Gates. RB is like TE. Elite athleticism can trump experience, but these are exceptional cases where HOF players lacked much experience at TE or RB before the NFL.
DeleteIn terms of position switches from QB, Blake Bell moved from playing QB to playing TE as a senior in college, Denard Robinson, same at RB. I'm not sure you can say either played really well at the NFL level but they had a few seasons. Meanwhile, Kenneth Gainwell moved from playing QB to playing RB as a college freshman.
Maybe there are more NFL TEs moved from other positions than NFL RBs moved from other positions. I don't really care since we're talking about Michigan here and specifically the Harbaugh era. In the Harbaugh era we have seen Mason, Houma, Hill, Haskins, Mullings, and Jackson all playing RB and at other positions just we have seen Mason, Hill, Honigford, Gentry and Poggi all playing TE and at other positions.
The fact that there's two guys who played both RB and TE overlapping on the lists should tell you that the situations are more similar than they are different. But if you're so locked into your view you can't consider the facts...it is what it is.
We jumped the shark at Wikipedia
Delete@ Lank 1:42 p.m.
Delete"Speaking last week on his “Attack Each Day podcast,” Jim Harbaugh named Wilson the top back heading into preseason camp."
https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/2019/08/michigan-rb-tru-wilson-out-to-earn-starting-role.html#
It is indeed pretty shocking that I ranked Tru Wilson #16 in the countdown after Jim Harbaugh said he was the #1 back going into fall camp.
I can't believe that I TRUSTED THE COACHES...
So you put a walkon who was listed as starter by default, at one of the least important positions on the field, at 16? And you feel justified?
DeleteHarbaugh rightfully put him high on the depth chart going into the season, as the top returner at RB after 2018. The other two guys were unproven -- a freshman coming off a knee injury and a position switcher from LB. But, the point you'll gloss over, is that the freshman was thrown in there was....perfectly fine. And a position switcher from LB was...perfectly fine. And when a WR was brought into the rotation for the bowl game he was...perfectly fine.
You'll make excuses forever. You have! But in one single year you had examples of freshman, walk-on, position-switch from LB, and a hybrid WR/RB being successful at the RB position. ALL of them! 5 YPC - no matter which one you put in. Sorry, 7 if you're named Jackson and you include carries from a conventional-in-this-century (but not in 1988) ball-carrier position.
But hey -- TE is the position where you can just put any old guy in there as long as he's about the right size. And RB needs to have 6 guys ranked in the top 60 because several of them might get to carry the ball against bowling green and will show up in the box score. 2 in the top 20 because one might get dinged and GASP we might even need to play the 3rd guy for some number of meaningful snaps instead of just doing it when we want. Sure, that's never been a problem, but let's blame Kalell Mullings at RB for the TCU loss even though he played single digit snaps, scored a TD, fumbled while playing FB, we were missing multiple TEs due to injury in that same game, and we lost primarily because of the defense getting shredded.
/s
You overrate RBs, systematically and continuously. Then you make excuses and deny facts to justify it.
DeleteLike denying Haskins playing LB and Jackson playing RB. These are facts! With Jackson you're arguing with video proof.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajAY-y5JaXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STiieTco7N8
With Haskins you're arguing with multiple media articles and yourself:
"it seemed like he was bound for linebacker until the great mass exodus of running backs hit, removing Karan Higdon (senior), Chris Evans (dumb mistake), and O’Maury Samuels (allegedly really dumb mistake) from the roster. Now the dearth of running backs creates a need for someone like Haskins to be ready to contribute"
I suggest you take a beat and listen to yourself, denying basic facts, making excuses and consider if you haven't taken this way too far.
I've always considered RB to be an outlier in your otherwise solid roster and player evals, but it's high time I reconsidered. Given how vociferously you are defending clearly bad takes, given how you'll dodge and deflect and deny basic facts, rather than admit when you are wrong. There's a broader question. Maybe I should consider if I'm not also wrong in my own take -- giving you the benefit of the doubt at the other positions.
I don't agree with your take that we can throw any vaguely TE-shaped person at TE on the field but I can understand it and respect it, if you weren't so inconsistent in your application of that same logic at the RB position. Especially since the TE position is multiple spots in the Harbaugh offense and RB is but one.
I think the topic has been exhausted at this point. I'm going to move on.
DeleteWe discussed portal priorities a month ago, and none of us had TE in our top3 ... as far as recruiting insiders go, the staff didn't recruit any tight ends from the portal
ReplyDeleteEven when we all agree, some want to disagree
just here to talk about one thing
DeleteTrust the coaches...
Delete...except when you disagree with them.
rent free 4eva
DeleteThis comment is so JE that I'm starting to think JE and Thunder are the same guy.
DeleteThis running gag between the "two" of you would be funny if it wasn't so easy to understand that playing time decisions aren't the only thing coaches do.
@ Lank 11:10 p.m.
DeleteYou constantly say "trust the coaches" because they're the ones doing the job, being paid millions of dollars (or hundreds of thousands of dollars). They are presumably also the best in the business at determining their own team's needs, evaluating personnel from the transfer portal, etc.
We either trust them or we don't. They can be questioned or they can't. If they're fallible when it comes to roster construction, they can also be fallible for playing time decisions, play calling, etc.
Nope.
DeleteI trust my 8 year old to brush his teeth at night, I don't trust him to drive a car.
I trust my managers to lead their teams, not set visions or strategy for the organization.
I've mostly said to trust the coaches about playing time decisions. I've been critical of Harbaugh staff's approach on injuries for a long time.
Trust on some things, not anothers, is totally fine. In fact, it's necessary. I don't think the world is as black and white as you see it.
How about a list of exceptions on "trust the coaches" ... I'm sure it'd read like 'when it fits the Lank narrative'
DeleteTrust the coaches on playing time decisions. Not hard. They're at practice, we're not.
DeleteAnd how much did the coaches "play" haskins at LB?
DeleteAbout the same amount they "played" Michael Barrett at LB when he was a freshman.
DeleteThis may be a shock to you JE, but not everyone at a position "plays" at that position in games. Some guys just play special teams. Others don't play at all.
That doesn't mean they play a different position than their teammates say they played, the media says they played, and they themselves say they played.
Your denial of an incontrovertible fact is as predictable as it is wrong.
So now you're saying Barret wasn't a linebacker? WTF
DeleteIf anyone here knows about "not playing" it'd be good ol Lank
I'm going off the official bio by the university's football program. That's well established fact. You're going off of online reports of routine tinkering with TRFr buried in a depth chart. The two POVs are not the same
LOL. What? When they were freshman, Barret was a LB who didn't play, just like HH was a LB who didn't play. Barrett finished his career LB, Haskins moved to RB. This isn't hard.
DeleteYou aren't built for this jelly. And by "this" I mean a rational conversation based on facts. All you have is cheap insults and your own brain processing an alternative reality.
I'm going off quotes of Haskins, Hudson, and media reports. See links above. You won't of course. The facts just get in the way.
" Fullback, not unlike "Tailback" or "Halfback" = Running Back, under the same position coach and in the same position room"
DeleteWhich room was Max Bredeson in last year -- RB or TE?
Al Bundy doesn't know football.
Delete@Lank11o9, you're catching on. Haskins was experimented with as a TRFr ...
Delete@Lank1117, I am not sure ... which room was bredeson in? He played roles in both spots, in LIVE games. The two are not the same outsmarted, again
@Lank118, three posts and nothing to show for it. If losing is an insult, I get why you're so sensitive to pushback
Holy cow, what'd I miss?
ReplyDeleteWe went from getting huffy-puffy over concern that our starting QB is likely a guy who hasn't been trusted to pass, to throwing a fit over our 4th TE not catching one?
No consistency. No principles. Just desperate for an argument. Some things never change
The point, as usual.
DeleteDodging
DeleteFantasizing
Delete