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| Vista, CA cornerback Stefan McClure (#21) |
Added Stefan McClure (CB).
Added Floyd Raven (CB).
Added Trevarris Saulsberry (DT) who is committed to Tennessee.
Added Jordan Williams (DE) who is committed to Tennessee.
Dallas Crawford (CB) decommitted from Michigan.
Jake Fisher (OT) decommitted from Michigan.
Added Matt Wile (K).
Matt Goudis (K) changed his commitment from Michigan to Miami.
Jack Tabb (TE) committed to North Carolina.
What do you think about Stephan McClure? And how would you rank him in comparison to other offered CBs?
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous 2:32 p.m.
ReplyDeleteI like McClure, but I think Floyd Raven is a better overall player. Raven could play FS or CB, and he's more of a quick-twitch athlete than McClure.
I'm somewhat partial to Dallas Crawford because of Crawford's playmaking ability, but I'm really torn between Crawford and Raven. If you put a gun to my head, I'd rank the remaining cornerbacks like this:
1. Raven
2. Crawford
3. McClure
4. Buie
This class is a nightmare. Place the blame on Dave Brandon for this fiasco. Lots of programs go through coaching changes without their classes completely falling apart. But our program was essentially piloted by a lame duck for over a month and that gave other programs a window to recruit our guys. Hoke has had no opportunity to build relationships with these guys. If he had an extra 40 days to do this, it might have made a difference. Our roster is already thin on talent and now this. We're going to be paying for Dave Brandon's moronic fuckup for a long time.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous 3:57 p.m.
ReplyDeleteI prefer to let things play out before judging Brandon's process. There's a chance that this recruiting class will be damaged, but there's also a chance that it can be salvaged.
Fisher could be reeled back in.
Losing Crawford and getting Raven/McClure might be a net gain.
Losing Goudis and getting Wile might be a net gain.
Frost might still be reeled in.
Hakeem Flowers might still be reeled in.
All is not lost.
Since we just started on those guys, I doubt that we get anyone new. Maybe we'll get Frost, but that is pure 100% luck since he tried to commit to Auburn.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous 4:43 p.m.
ReplyDeleteBack in 2008, Rodriguez was able to pull Omameh, Shaw, Barnum, Hill, and Feagin when they hadn't been considering Michigan prior to then.
We'll almost surely get *someone* who's new to the Michigan recruiting scene. Whether it's one of the guys already listed or somebody yet to be spotlighted, it's most likely going to happen. That's just the way things work.
Thunder,
ReplyDeleteLets assume best case scenario: Hoke keeps the 10 current commits and adds 10 guys that are fairly well regarded. Lets say: Bryant and Fisher (OL), Taylor and McClure (DB), Frost, Flowers, F.Clark & C.Jones gives us a TE/QB to fill out the depth chart, Wile, and just for the sake of argument, Zettel flips to M. 20 recruits total.
Wouldn't such a class still be well below the kind of top 10 class we expect to be 'normal' at Michgian? And wouldn't Brandon still face heat for not getting Hoke into the job earlier to potentially get some higher profile players?
@ Anonymous 5:21 p.m.
ReplyDeleteMichigan currently has three 4-star commits and seven 3-star commits.
You're talking about adding Bryant (4-star), Fisher (3-star), Taylor (4-star), McClure (4-star), Frost (4-star), Flowers (3-star), Clark (3-star), Jones (3-star), Wile (3-star) and Zettel (4-star).
That's eight 4-stars and twelve 3-stars (by Rivals rankings).
The closest current comparison, purely by star ranking, is - believe it or not - Ohio State. The Buckeyes have 20 commits (nine 4-stars, eleven 3-stars) and are ranked #7 in the country.
Obviously, other teams are going to move up or down in the rankings between now and February 2. And OSU's one additional 4-star makes a difference. So I'm not saying that Michigan will end up at #8 or #9 or whatever.
But for a team that's 15-22 in the last three years and is coming off its second coaching change in roughly three years, wouldn't a top 20 or 25 class be a pretty good success?
Furthermore, your hypothetical class includes Frost and Zettel, arguably two of the top targets in this year's class. So ultimately, there are moving parts around those guys, but those are the crown jewels (aside from Dee Hart). And speaking of Dee Hart, he was going to decommit whether Rodriguez was fired on December 1st or January 5th, so the length of Brandon's process didn't have an effect there (I know you didn't say anything about Hart; I'm just using him for perspective).
Anyway, the point is that it's impossible to judge the effect of David Brandon's hiring process on recruiting at this point. We're still a couple weeks away from National Signing Day, and this class might have ended up in the same exact place, whether Hoke was hired earlier or not. We'll never know for sure, but right now, judging the recruiting class is speculation based on very, very flimsy evidence.
My apologies for counting Wile as a 3-star in the above response. I had already hit "Publish". But the general point still stands.
ReplyDeleteThunder,
ReplyDeleteEven if Hoke manages to fill out the class with generic 2 and 3 stars, thats probably a good thing. Theres going to be attrition and he needs serviceable bodies to avoid some of the pitfalls that Rodriguez experienced. I think many people would grant that GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES - a top 20 class or anywhere near it would be a success. The class can be "salvaged" and indeed "all is not lost".
That said, we know that a top 20 class is unlikely and a below-typical-standards class is probably here. The question is: what's to blame? You can blame that on 15-22 or the transition or some other factors, but its probably all of the above. Alternative fates are unknowable. In some ways if Hoke delivers a top 25 class it only strengthens the argument against Brandon. If Hoke has that kind of recruiting ability, just think what could he have been done with 2 months instead of 3 weeks?
That is to say, that good or bad, the ultimate class probably won't tell you how damaging the transition was. No need to wait - you can probably go ahead and pass judgement now, since its just a matter of speculation anyway.
We can (probably) say its bad, but we'll never know how bad.
WHY IN THE WORLD ARE WE NOT RECRUITING A VERY GOOD WR LIKE DEVIN LUCIEN FOR RECEIVER WHEN WE WILL BE LOSING 3 AFTER 2011 AND WILL HAVE ONLY 1 PROVEN WR IN ROY ROUNDTREE WHO FOR SOME REASON HAS FORGOTTEN HOW TO ACTUALLY CATCH THE FOOTBALL.
ReplyDeleteI'M REALLY PISSED AND TO TOP IT OFF THE QUOTE FROM LUCIEN MAKES ME FEEL LIKE A JERK.
/NOT HAPPY
@ MH20 10:06 p.m.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to make sense of the Devin Lucien thing for you, but I really have no idea. The only thing I can think of is that they already have a WR in the bag (Flowers, maybe) and are hoping to get Frost (who stubbornly wants to be a WR, at least initially) and they want to recruit other positions.
But I'd rather have Lucien than Flowers, so that doesn't make sense. And I don't care what Frost says, he's going to be a linebacker when all is said and done.
I'm as dumbfounded as you.
Sorry for the stupid all-caps ramble. You know, have a rep to uphold at mgo and such.
ReplyDeleteLucien, man, I liked that kid. Great film, good size, nice speed, etc. I agree that Kris Frost will be an LB, because well, he is a monster at the position and frankly has more of TE speed than WR speed.
WR is not an OMG HAVE TO HAVE IT need for this class, but at least one is important, IMO. Maybe even two. Tree is the only proven guy that will be returning for 2012, as I don't think we'll see THAT much from the likes of Stokes, Jackson, Robinson, and Williamson in 2011.
Sorry to belabor this point, and maybe you'll make a main post on this, but anyways, yeah, I just had to get out some frustration.
/Lucien really wanted to be here just like Hoke OMG MICHIGAN MAN?! but no
Here's a guess as to why Lucien was turned away: We don't need WR. Theres about 72 on the roster (I counted) and only 2 WR positions in a pro-style offense. There are a ton of seniors and a ton of freshman WR. There's just no need.
ReplyDeleteThe scholarships in this class are better allocated for QB, TE, OL, K, and DL. WR is the deepest spot on the team and Michigan can't afford to keep allocating so many scholarships to this position.
I don't know why they're recruiting any since they have Hayes in the bag and hopefully Frost. Even if they both move away from WR, theres plenty of depth still on the roster.
It seems crazy to me. Most people are screaming for defense (even though we have a good deal of young depth there) and then when we focus on it, people gripe that we don't have enough WR.
WR is a fairly easy position for freshman to come in and contribute. Michigan is wise to wait for elite recruiting prospects in next years class. See how Hayes and Frost fit. See how all the slots and last years giant receiver class fit. Focus on your major needs and then next year move forward.
Thunder,
ReplyDeleteRe: Frost - were you also sure that Denard would end up at DB or WR?
Ian Gold and T.J. Duckett where players who everyone assumed knew where they belonged but where wrong. Navarre was thought to be a TE.
The recruiting consensus is often right, but many times its wrong. Maybe Frost can be a WR and regardless of that, he wants to try - so let him. If he says he's a WR take him at his word for now and see what happens down the line. He'll probably see the 72 WR ahead of him and make the logical deduction about where he fits best...but you never know.
@ Lankownia 11:08 p.m.
ReplyDeleteI think you're overestimating the depth and talent at the WR position. The best wide receivers on the roster are either seniors (Hemingway, Odoms, Stonum) or a redshirt junior (Roundtree). The rest are...so-so.
No, I was never sure that Denard would end up at DB or WR. I thought so, but not with certainty. The whole lack of depth at QB thing prevents that.
I didn't follow recruiting when Gold, Duckett, and Navarre were around. I know what happened/what was expected, but I can't speak to what I might have thought about them at the time.
Regardless, Frost isn't going to be a linebacker. I'm not 100% certain because nobody can be certain of something like that, but yeah...I'm pretty sure. For whatever it's worth.
There are 13 WR on the roster next year, not counting any incoming recruits. 7 are upperclassmen and 6 are underclassmen. Thats 6.5 guys per starting position. Even if you pull out all the upperclassmen, that gets you to 3.0 per position. Does any other position come remotely close to that ratio? TE is at 2, with only upperclassmen. QB is at 2. OL is at 0.4 if you pull out the upperclassmen.
ReplyDeleteAs for talent, there were some highly regarded recruits included (e.g. Gallon, Robinson, Stokes, Miller) amongst the younger players. I'm not sure how you can pass judgment on the young WR who have hardly played yet. Lucien would almost certainty be red-shirted - would you call him "so-so" a year from now? I think I need to come up with a clever name for when the recruits of the previous class are put behind incoming recruits because they're the hot new thing.
I believe you about Frost, I'm just sayin...if the guy DOES stick at WR, you want to have your bases covered.
BTW,
ReplyDeleteEveryone was sure Duckett was a LB because of his size but he obviously became a big success at RB. Gold was the opposite - putting up crazy numbers as a RB. Recruiting wasn't tracked nearly as closely back then, but the point still stands.
Sorry, theres 3 underclass OL, not 2.
ReplyDelete@ Lankownia 11:29 p.m.
ReplyDeleteIf every position were given an equal number of backups, you would go about 3.75 deep at each spot.
But I think you're holding a little too tightly to the "only two receivers will be on the field at once" idea. If Hoke/Borges want Denard and Devin here on campus, then I think they're committing themselves to putting three and four receivers on the field frequently (not every play, but frequently).
I'm not really including Gallon/Robinson in the discussion, because they're slot guys, not wideout types. Lucien is the type of guy we SHOULD want on the field once Hoke gets his pro-style game on; Gallon/Robinson types are probably not the direction Hoke plans to go in the future.
No, I wouldn't call Lucien so-so a year from now if he redshirted. I was never high on Robinson/Jackson/Williamson/Miller, and they have done nothing to dispel that notion. Robinson redshirted despite every chance to get on the field (allegedly due to his attitude), Jackson was underwhelming as expected, Williamson didn't sniff the field, and Miller is supposedly now a tight end. I'm not saying they WON'T be good players down the road, but my expectations are not high for them.
First off, I really really really wanted Lucien in this class but I'm not going to lose any sleep over him. IMO, JeRon Stokes is basically the same player as Lucien. They have similar builds, size and speed although I think Lucien's film is more impressive and his route running is far better than Stoke's. With that said, I see a Hoke trend in wanting big, physical WR's. I believe the smaller, quick WR's are going to be phased out under Hoke. I do not agree with it but that is my belief after watching SDSU highlights and the traditional Michigan offense when Hoke was here. That's why i believe Hoke wants Flowers more than Lucien even though I like Lucien better. Flowers has a good frame but needs to develop some strength to go along with his speed and size.
ReplyDelete@912Jeff:
ReplyDeleteYes but Lucien is listed at 6-1, 190 and Flowers listed somewhere around 6-2, 175/180. Lucien is basically as tall but has at least 15 pounds on Flowers. If there is something that Hoke likes more in Flowers' game, I don't think it's his overall size compared to Lucien's, at least IMO.
Also FWIW, Stokes was listed at 6-1, 175 coming out of high school. mgoblue.com now lists him at 6-0, 193.
I'm with you I want Lucien more than Flowers and its not even close.
ReplyDeleteThe point I was making is that Flowers has a frame that could develop some more strength/weight over time bc neither of them will see the field in the next two years, IMO. I'm not saying Lucien couldn't add strength/weight but Flowers is a really thin kid that could fill out more.
Another thing is the way these WR's block. I have seen zero blocking in the highlight tapes of these two recruits so I can't form an opinion on them. Maybe Hoke has seen them block but who knows at this point.
And yes you are right. I thought Flowers had a couple inches on Lucien but it appears to be only an inch.
Regarding the Lucien and Stokes comparison: I still stand by my statement that they are similar players. Lucien is slightly bigger but I believe Stokes has some speed on him.
I will conclude with I still WANT Lucien at Michigan and don't fully understand his recruitment.
I'll trust coaches opinions (as reflected by Flowers' phat offer sheet and Lucien's not) over (semi?) amateur assessments of a highlight footage, no offense.
ReplyDeleteumm didnt frost get his scholarship from auburn already? im pretty sure that a guy who commits with no scholly is gonna stick to that school. just....sayin.
ReplyDelete-horn