Here are five things I'll be watching in the 2024 spring game:
1. How does Alex Orji throw the ball? Third-year quarterback Alex Orji seems to be the most likely [currently rostered and healthy] guy to start behind center this fall. At 6'3" and 236 lbs., we know he can run. We saw him do it at various times during the championship run in 2023. What we didn't see at all in 2023 is Orji passing the ball. Footwork, accuracy, and touch are all in question. I don't expect to see him run the ball a whole lot, because running a QB when they can't be tackled is kind of unfair and boring. If/when he has time to throw, how does he look? Can he feather the ball or does he just throw it on a line? Does he get his feet lined up properly to throw, or are they all over the place? What we see might indicate whether Michigan needs to dip into the portal for a potential starter in the fall.
2. Who's the "other" corner? We know Will Johnson has one cornerback spot locked down for this fall. If a currently rostered player wins the job across from him, it will likely be either Jyaire Hill or D.J. Waller. Waller got more playing time in the fall, but when Hill enrolled early last spring and was flying around, I thought he looked like a potential future star. Michigan still might look to the transfer portal to help out at a fairly thin position, but it would still be nice to see progress from Hill and Waller.
Hit the jump for more.
3. Who's next at running back? It seems likely that Donovan Edwards and Kalel Mullings will be the 1-2 punch at running back this fall, but Benjamin Hall was the breakout star of the 2023 spring game. Hall (15 carries, 69 yards) didn't play much in 2023, but with Corum gone and Edwards/Mullings pretty much certain to depart after 2024, there's going to be room for someone to stake his claim for the job in 2025. If Hall has added some quickness and improved his conditioning, he could get a head start over the likes of 2024 signees Micah Ka'apana and Jordan Marshall. There's a long way to go before 2025, but this could give us an inkling.
4. What does Jaishawn Barham look like in a Michigan uniform? Maryland transfer linebacker Jaishawn Barham has reportedly stepped right in at middle linebacker and looks like a stud. He's 6'3" and 248 pounds, and reports out of practice indicate he's making plays from sideline to sideline. I think he has the potential to be even better than Junior Colson, whom some NFL draft analysts believe could be the #1 linebacker taken in the 2024 draft. I think speed will be important for this linebacker group, because defensive tackles Kenneth Grant and Mason Graham are so good that teams are going to have to try to get outside if they want to move the ball.
5. How do the Year 2 players look after a year in the S&C program? Freshmen usually look a little soft and/or gangly, but there are a lot of players in their second year who could play significant roles in 2024. I've already mentioned RB Benjamin Hall, CB Jyaire Hill, and CB D.J. Waller. But some other sophomores/redshirt freshmen who could play key roles are DE Cameron Brandt, DE/DT Enow Etta, S Brandyn Hillman, WR Fred Moore, and TE Deakon Tonielli. Some other young guys like OG Amir Herring, OLB Jason Hewlett, and OT Evan Link have also earned a little bit of practice buzz, but it seems like they might be another year or so away from having a big impact.
Well, I never made it, life conspired against me and I ended up watching it on TV at the Haymaker.
ReplyDeleteSo I saw nothing everyone else didn't see.
I do think it's safe to say that Denegal ain't the answer.
Orji threw some decent balls on the last drive.
Young corners looked pretty ok.
That's all I got.
Freddy Moore can run.
DeleteOur kicking game ... woof.
Roanman
DeleteI agree on Denegal. Kirk Campbell said he's the most improved guy...and...that's really saying something about where he was originally.
DeleteDoes seem like there's a gap between Orji/Warren and Denegal/Davis. Tuttle would be in the first group. I think it's a 3-man competition with Orji seemingly both in the lead and with the most upside.
DeleteKicking game might mean panic, but I'll hold off for now
ReplyDeleteWe need a QB. Spring game is hard to judge by: Davis looked the best, but in a controlled setting and no hitting on the QB. We've seen him live and it's ugly. Orji looked like the big, elite athlete that excites many but his footwork is erratic, despite the scripted & safe environment. Hopefully his gimmick role is expanded this year, but not at QB
Edwards! After his second run, they had the cameras lined up behind the offense; dude put on muscle, and much of it is in the gudunkadunk ... also looked quicker with his cuts and even BROKE TACKLES
We need WR depth, but Moore looked faster and may
I think we have our CB2. Both Waller & Hill looked good, offense shortcomings should be noted though
Zeke Berry can play the run! I think we'll be fine at safety
GO BLUE
Yeah, Moore looked mighty speedy. All his special teams returns in high school, plus his 48-yard TD in this spring game, should indicate that he'll be a good YAC guy going forward.
Delete*on Orji, accidently autocorrected to just QB ... I meant that I don't think he looked like a playoff QB1
ReplyDelete1st watch was for specific guys
ReplyDelete2d watch was general enjoyment
3d watch was LoS ... uh, I'm feeling really good. Even last year, we saw guys on OL get thrown around or knocked back (Gentry got pushed around). But this year the new & jumbled OL held its own against our DL. Small holes were there. Push was provided several times. A couple huge holes (Dunlap's run). Even some good protection
The only starter I saw with a noticeably bad play was the false start at the end of the first half, caused by Crippen not snapping
Should it mean everything, or even much? Probably not, but we've seen OL's get crushed, and both sides did well enough to imagine the "starting six" will be formidable
*Mullings is a chore to bring down!
Not a big believer in spring game observations generally but a few notable things to me.
ReplyDeleteOrji and Warren looked well above Denegal and Davis and looked like they could be effective QBs.
DJ Waller looks like he might be ready for a starting spot.
TJ Guy looked ready to be this year's Mike Danna (backing up the starting EDGEs)
Fred Moore looked ready to contribute
Rolder looked good and (more importantly) was out there playing
If there's any updated portal needs based on the spring game I would say it's that OT might be a need spot. Persi was working at guard I believe. Feel OK inside with Raheem Anderson available and Persi working on becoming this team's version of a swing OT/OG like Barnhart. Gentry should have been dominating people if he's going to be your starter.
Campbell was open about needing a WR but I dunno - all those departures might indicate a more run-focused offense with Orji at QB. I'm sure they can get guys to help but I also feel alright about Morris/Moore/Morgan. Obviously depth isn't there but O'Leary has supposedly been ready to contribute for a few years now and Bell has talent. There's a lack of bodies right now but that will get addressed somewhat by freshman arrivals.
Portal Wish List - Biggest opportunities for team improvement
1. Starting QB (Upgrade vs Orji/Tuttle)
2. Starting Nickel (Upgrade vs Berry/McBurrows)
3. Starting OT (Upgrade vs Gentry)
4. Rotational DB - corner, nickel, safety (Upgrade vs Hill/Holliman)
5. In-line TE (Upgrade vs Klein/Tonelli)
6. Rotational WR (Upgrade vs Moore/O'Leary)
7. Rotational DL (Upgrade vs Etta/Brandt)
Don't see a need at RB or ILB which has been floated various places.
I think spring game observations need to be limited mostly to individual player analysis. Saying "the offense won't be consistent" or "the defense looks really good" is worthless. If the offense looks good, it might be because the defense stinks. If the defense looks awesome, it might be because the offensive line isn't gelling yet or maybe they know the play calls.
DeleteAre players bigger, smaller, faster, slower, etc.? Are they running routes well, are they breaking tackles, are they whiffing on tackles, are they getting knocked on their butts, etc.? Those are all valid and useful observations at this point.
Kendrick Bell caught a long touchdown pass . . . against a walk-on safety. Not exactly super impressive for Bell.
T.J. Guy got an uncontested sack . . . against a true freshman early enrollee tackle. Not exactly super impressive for Guy.
Jyaire Hill showed good enough acceleration to catch up to Donovan Edwards on an outside run? Hmmm...good for Hill.
I agree with you. Not worth making too much out of limited highlights, especially against deep backups.
DeleteFWIW, with Guy it was not so much the sack that stood out - more just his overall competence and how he looks play to play -- more like a starter than a walk-on or freshman to my eyes. A certain level of confidence in how he moved around the field that backs up the last couple years of positive buzz and projection of him emerging into the rotation without being too much of a downgrade to Harrell/McGregor.
@Thunder, I agree regarding observations, but things do standout
ReplyDelete- mixup of players at OL still got some movement, leading to all RBs making plays. I'll take that any day
- I don't know if Fred Moor can run routes or catch, but dude is FAST
- Orji's footwork and touch have a long way to go
Maybe Orji should transfer to Division 3?
DeleteYou don't understand the position, let alone the game
DeleteOrji has really bad footwork, and needs to improve touch (too little arch when needed). That can improve, and he has other skills to rely on in the meantime
Your boy Joe has sh:tty mechanics, couldn't read a Defense, didn't command the offense, and - despite being huge - was (is) either too timid to take off and run when his reads are taken away or doesn't realize the opportunity is there on time
Learn the game Lank
"Strange footwork tends to lead him to overstride when he targets these outside throws. He could clean it up with coaching to help him do a better job of keeping his base underneath him."
DeleteYes - this is PFF's take so I believe the scouting here on the need for footwork improvement is probably valid.
Wait wait - my mistake - the above is not a quote from PFF about Orji at all it's about JJ who is expected to be a 1st round NFL choice. Maybe needing to improve footwork isn't such a terrible thing. Just a thought.
Good argument against whoever thinks Orji is a finished product and doesn't need to improve though JEL. Hold it up high and don't look in the mirror to see if it's a W or a (je)L.
As for Joe Milton - he's about to get drafted after deciding not to take the coward's route you advocated for == avoid the challenge to ensure success! make it easy! don't compete! Timid isn't going to a the SEC and competing with a Day 2 NFL player. Timid isn't choosing NOT to run for cover when things don't go your way.
The next time your analysis is right will be the first jeL
You've compared orji to two of the best college QBs of the century in Tebow & Cam, now you're comparing him to top10 pick JJ? Trolling, because you don't know the game
DeleteCowards route is FCS? Does that make JimmyG, Joe Flacco or Tony Romo cowards? Recall, I predicted Joe would get drafted, comparing some GM's reach to what you said about Michael Cox. YOU have the doubt ... too scared to make a call based on analysis of play
You lost. Again. Outsmarted. Again
Learn the game Lank
Look up the definition of comparison again. Your FCS examples miss the point again. You aren't built for this jeL.
DeleteThe point is about cowering from competition - Garapallo and Romo didn't have scholarship offers to Michigan or Tennessee on the table. They took that disrespect and fed off it.
You didn't think Joe Milton was good enough to start in the SEC or the Big Ten, but he was good enough to do both. You advocated for him to take the easy way out, to avoid competition, to go to a lower level. You didn't think he was going to get drafted when you said this. Only in 2024, 3 years later when you were proven dead wrong, after spending years talking about how he stunk and got benched, when everyone was projecting MIlton to be an NFL pick, did you "predict Joe would get drafted". LOL. Maybe you'll soon predict JJ will get drafted too.
Look man, you're just not built for this. You don't even remember what you are saying let alone able to keep up a cogent perspective in a message board debate. All you have is insults and fantasies and the burning desire to talk to Lank.
I wasn't proven wrong Lank. Milton spent 5 years on the bench, not starting a full season until a global pandemic resulted in year SIX ... because those five years were spent on pine, the criticism of Joe while in Ann Arbor still find their way to his draft profile, either preceded or followed by something to the effect of "a team/GM/coach will take a chance on his unique physical talent"
DeleteI was right. The case is closed. Revisiting now is no more than a disingenuous attempt to hide from your Orji loss
Defeated. Outsmarted. Again. Learn the game; STOP LYING
Joe Milton started games in 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023.
DeleteWeird I didn't see "needs to transfer D3 to get a starting job" in the draft profiles, nor did I see the insistence that Joe Milton throws too many INTs play out as Joe threw 1 every 100 pass attempts at Tenn.
The only lies being told are the ones you tell yourself jeL. I've got the facts, quotes, and stats to prove you wrong at the drop of a hat. You've got a fantasy.
#case closed
Omission of fact is lying:
Delete- Milton was benched in 2o2o & 21, and only started in 2o22 after injury
- no one said FCS was in his draft profile
- when did I mention INT ratio? Maaaybe after the Senior Bowl (two picks!), but INTs were always attributed to poor decision making, panic, and faulty mechanics
That you must lie is more proof of your inability to craft a point in good faith
The criticisms I have made against Joe are also a part of his draft profile and even Patriots draft grades. "Flier" is one of the more common terms used
I was right, because I understand the position and the game. You were wrong because you do not
Outsmarted. Again
@jeL
DeleteKeep fantasizing my #1 fan.
If omission is a lie how do you feel about omitting that Milton only lost his starting job when he was hurt, at Michigan and at Tennessee? Or all his college production, yards, QBR etc.
If omission is a lie how do you feel about omitting that you asserted Patterson's health was a big driver in Milton's transfer because he lacked patience -- and then Patterson was healthy all year -- MIlton waited -- and then took over the starting job after Patterson left. Or how you spent all of 2023 arguing he was a below average college QB and speculating he would get benched again? Didn't happen. Sorry.
You were wrong about Milton in 2019 and wrong in 2023, and wrong everywhere in between. Wrong to say the guy who won a starting job at Michigan had to go to D3 to start. Wrong to insist that interceptions were a big problem. It was just (overtly dumb) speculation at the time, so I argued with it, and now it's just incontrovertible FACTS -- that you were wrong at every step.
Now you're left grasping at the bottom half of the NFL!!! scouting report for a top 10 drafted QB. Comparing him to a slow RB who produced nothing in college -- insisting you are right!
Again, the only person you're able to outsmart is yourself. The only reason for that is because you have developed a habit of forgetting the foolish things you say. Convenient for you -- but that's why I keep receipts.
Hold it up real high so we all can see this brand new shiny L.
@ Lank 10:30 a.m.
DeleteThis morning I was listening to The Athletic's draft analysis of day three picks, and Dane Brugler - along with one of the other hosts - said that a lot of NFL teams saw Joe Milton as being on "the Logan Thomas plan" of converting him from QB to TE. I'm not sure if the Patriots are one of those teams, but considering Drake Maye was also selected by the Patriots in this draft...
If Milton follows the path of Logan Thomas, I'm sure that will color this discussion of Milton in the coming months and years.
Ultimately, he's 6'5", 246 pounds, runs a 4.62 in the forty, and can throw a ball 70 yards. If he can't turn that into some sort of pro career - whether at QB, TE, DE/OLB, or even in the CFL/UFL - that's a little bit disappointing.
@Thunder
DeleteWhy would that change anything about Milton's success in college? That's what we've been talking about for the last 6 years. Not his pro career prospects.
In 2021 you said it was a mistake to start Milton over McCaffrey (but Jim Harbaugh was right here, McCaffrey was very bad). You also predicted he would end up at a non power 5 school ( he went to the SEC). You called him inaccurate as well, he went on to complete 65% of his college passes with a low interception rate. etc
https://touchthebanner.blogspot.com/2021/02/joe-milton-ex-wolverine.html
Wouldn't you say he EXCEEDED expectations there? already? The opposite of disappointment, if the bar is a failed starter at Michigan, worse than McCaffrey, and not up for a power 5 starting job, let alone one in the SEC?
--------------------------------------
But let's take it back even further -- why would a pro career, at any position, be anything but success for a guy who was the #18 ranked QB in his high school class?
Those measurable traits you mentioned were all there in high school, yet Milton was rated below Jack Tuttle, Tyler Shough, Adrian Marinez, Phil Jurkovec, and Dorian Thompson Robinson.
You yourself gave Milton an 88 rank -- "some NFL draft potential" out of high school before souring on Milton over the next few years.
6 years later, he has exceeded those expectations on every front -- his NFL draft potential is extent - he was the 9th QB taken. his college career - was successful at Tennessee after stumbling as the starter at Michigan.
So I guess the question is when did the bar get elevated to "this guy should be evaluated like he's a first round pick" and by whom? If you don't agree with that bar, OK that's fine, then I guess it's where did the bar get elevated to if he doesn't have a pro career he's a disappointment.
Most guys ranked outside the top 200 are not pros. Most starting QBs outside the power 5 aren't pros. Most QBs who need to go to D3 aren't pros.
And ESPECIALLY if it's people who say that the most important things for a QB are accuracy (you have it or you don't right?), ability to read defenses (Milton didn't get great HS coaching and played in a wonky college system right?), then what are we talking about here? Why is this guy supposed to be a pro on physical traits alone? You don't even believe that Thunder, and neither does anyone else here.
Milton's physical traits are great but physical traits aren't what makes a QB. You and I agree on this Thunder! Yet you seem to look at Milton or Mallet types and start drooling (proverbially). The world is filled with dudes who are 6'5 and 250 but not skilled enough to be a pro athletes. I don't know how often you go out anymore Thunder - but there are a lot of bouncers on this earth.
So if QB is NOT about physical traits above other stuff, why is Milton a disappointment based on his physical traits?
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Seems like the goalposts have been moved here and I'm not exactly sure why they have been moved to "disappointing if he's not a pro".
And ESPECIALLY for a guy who claims as a sign of their success and validation of their college evaluations that the draft selection of guys like Michael Cox and Jake Rudock is meaningful. Why is Joe Milton's draft status not validating?
--------------------------------------------------
Milton and NE have both brushed back the speculation of a move back to TE. Milton hasn't spent a day of his life blocking, running routes, and catching the ball so I don't think this is going to happen at the NFL level. But if it does, hey, that's just another feather in Joe Milton's cap and will be another example of him exceeding expectations, just like his college career as a QB.
DeleteMilton is a good QB - good enough to be drafted into the NFL, good enough to start for Michigan, good enough to start for Tennessee. Neither you nor I think he'll be a good NFL QB! But let's at least acknowledge that he has dramatically exceeded the expectations so far and evaluations that were created for him up to this point.
If he's going to disappoint relative to your own evaluations and predictions Thunder, it would be for the first time. Otherwise you're arguing with high expectation having ghosts.
@ Lank 1:08 p.m.
DeleteAgain, Lank, I don't have the time to respond to everything here. What I'm saying is that a 6'5", 246 lb. guy who runs a 4.62 forty and can throw the ball 70 yards should be able to find a pro career in the sport of football. Those guys don't grow on trees. He would be tied for the #5 fastest TE in the draft and the #6 fastest LB in the draft.
I'm not saying he would be a disappointment to his family or the human race.
As for moving to TE, Logan Thomas spent a couple years playing QB in the NFL before becoming a tight end. Yes, the Patriots are publicly saying he's a QB, just like I'm sure teams were publicly saying Logan Thomas was a QB. Behind closed doors, as mentioned, a lot of teams apparently think he should switch to tight end. I'm not saying that will or should happen, but it's out there and not just coming from je93 or random message board posters. If you have a problem with that reporting...take it up with Brugler.
LOL. I have no problem with somebody speculating about something but Milton is not a TE. It's that simple. If you want to evaluate him based on physical profile for a position he doesn't play and assert it would be disappoint if he wasn't a pro athlete at a position he doesn't play - OK go for it. I guess I can be disappointed Joe isn't one of the world's best lacrosse players...it's irrelevant.
DeleteFantasy hypotheticals aren't really the point here. Other people have changed positions before!?! Cool. That's nice that Logan Thomas, a former QB (who threw for more yards in the NFL than Jake Rudock did) moved positions, but that was after multiple seasons in the NFL as a failed QB. And he moved to a position he had played before in high school anyway.
Maybe Milton can be another Riemersma or Gentry at a far greater age and maybe he can't. That's not really all that relevant to this blog's discussion topic is it? Some talking heads speculating on a position change doesn't have anything to do with how you evaluated Milton as a college QB and that's not how he was evaluated at the combine. Maybe if I'd heard you raving about the passing accuracy of Joe Milton (a TE turned QB) this would make more sense. But that's not what happened.
So an assertion that Milton should be a pro TE or he'll be a disappointment seems like a pretty big dodge and another move of the goalposts. That's where my "problem" lies.
Milton could fail spectacularly as an NFL QB and would not " change the color this discussion of Milton in the coming months and year". We all expect him to right? He could be cut by September -- would anyone here be shocked?
If he falls flat like we all expect as an NFL QB -- what difference does it make if after that he goes on to be a TE or a lawyer or a fireman or a olympic bobsledder? It's interesting but wholly immaterial to the conversation about Joe Milton's abilities as a college QB that has been happening on here for the last 6 years.
It's fine to not respond - the questions are rhetorical. Who expects Joe Milton to be an good NFL QB? Who is disappointed if he isnt?
The answer is the same as who has it better than us.
-----------------------------------
Looking for YET ANOTHER excuse of why Joe Milton isn't actually as good of a QB as he looks (after Jim Harbaugh picked him as a starter at QB, Josh Heupel picked him as a starter at QB, 6000 yards and 50 TDs as a college QB , and an NFL draft spot as a QB) you are STILL looking for an excuse. Joe isn't as good as Dylan. Joe is inaccurate. Joe is a system QB. Joe wasn't REALLY drafted as a QB.
Sorry, but even if Milton becomes a HOF TE or a grocery store clerk you're still going to have underestimated Joe Milton as a college QB. Because of what he did in college from 2018-2023. His production, his performance, his accolades, his successes ALL exceeded your expectations, the recruiting industry expectations, and the Michigan fan's expectations circa 2021.
Sorry - I don't mean to sound combative with you Thunder. But really, the framing of everything Milton-related in the most negative possible light for all these years has reached comical levels.
DeleteIf you're going to cite Jake Rudock and Michael Cox draft status as telling of their abilities exceeding their production, maybe it's OK to eat a little crow on Milton's QB ability under the same logic. Especially with the production and accolades being much better in Milton's case.
@ Lank 4:13 p.m.
DeleteI think some of your combativeness around Joe Milton is being projected onto me. I'm not on here bashing Milton over and over again.
He wasn't what Michigan needed at the time, and I don't think he ever was. I don't think Michigan wins the Big Ten in 2021 with him at QB. And they certainly wouldn't have done what they did in 2022 and 2023 with him at QB. Michigan was better off without him. He was better off at Tennessee than Michigan.
As for what happens in the NFL...again, we'll see what happens.
But you came on the site taunting je93 (and me, I guess?) about Joe Milton getting drafted in the 6th round, saying he was the 9th best QB in the draft, etc. I'll throw this right back at you:
If Joe Milton getting drafted is such a feather in your cap and confirmation of everything you ever believed . . . then use that same energy on Michael Cox. And Jake Rudock.
You've literally spent YEARS on here arguing that the NFL draft doesn't really mean anything because we're talking about college ball and blah blah blah...then Joe Milton gets drafted two spots lower than Rudock, and now you want to bring in the NFL draft.
Personally, I'll stand by the idea that the NFL draft is relevant when gauging how a player performed. So let's roll with it. Now it's in black and white, etched in history forever:
Jake Rudock (#191 overall) was better than Joe Milton (#193 overall).
LyinLank, Milton did get benched after getting hurt, but not because he got hurt. His best passes in a winged helmet came against Indiana, AFTER the party boo-boo. He was benched against Wisconsin after the ugly pick & inept performance, and again after trailing Rutger .... he was on the field warming up against Pitt after that boo-boo as well, and dressed for every game of 2o21. He was benched because he wasn't as good as the other guy (TWICE)
DeleteI was right about Milton - he transferred because he wasn't good enough to beat the starter
I was right in my criticism, and his UFR, PFF and draft analysis all align with obvious game flaws. You won't dispute that ... but didn't think he'd get drafted and now know he won't survive the NFL ...why not? Because you know everything I say is true
Dude who brought up Nik Stauskus in a QB debate is claiming "irrelevant" ... holy sociopath
Combative? You'd have to have a halfway decent debate to be considered combative ... you're telling folks they're wrong about Milton, while doubting Milton for the SAME REASONS
Not even Lank agrees with LyinLank
No lies told by yours truly. None of your sad quibbles don't discount the facts.
Delete"I was right about Milton - he transferred because he wasn't good enough to beat the starter" <-- is this what you said or did you say he lacked patience and would go if Shea Patterson stayed healthy?
He beat out McCaffrey and McNamara and then he got the starting job and then he got hurt and "wasn't put in a position to succeed" and then he transferred. Then he beat Hooker for the starting job and held it till he got hurt. The rest is history. No lies told.
https://fansided.com/2021/09/11/hendon-hooker-tennessee-joe-milton-injury/
One quote! You don't have it.
Dude who brought up Michael Cox in a QB debate is upset he doesn't understand what a comparison is. I'll explain it in a way you can understand -- Michael Cox isn't a QB you liar! LOL.
You were wrong in your criticism, as has been outlined time and time again. You don't want to own it. But you do anyway.
jeLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
@Thunder
Delete"I think some of your combativeness around Joe Milton is being projected onto me. I'm not on here bashing Milton over and over again."
Yes that's true that you're not beating the drum the way your sycophant is, but you have been very critical of Milton for many years now and remain negative today. It goes beyond not being the right fit at Michigan. Assertions that he is worse than Jake Rudock and should move to TE and could be a disappointment, continue the pattern.
"Michigan was better off without him." <-- disagree
"He was better off at Tennessee than Michigan." <--- agree
FWIW - I love the hypothetical of Milton maturing as a starter in 2021, especially if he's given training wheels all September. Who knows what would have happened but I'm confident he's a much better QB than McNamara before 2020 and after 2021. I'll acknowledge that McNamara may have been more ready to be a game manager in 2021 than Milton. But that's hard to say given Milton has proven to be better at avoiding INTs and a better run threat. Given what happened after 2020, I'd say there was a good chance McNamara would have lost the competition for the starting job head into 2021, and even if it wasn't just about game management - Milton brings a lot of elements that may have netted out to his advantage.
As for McCarthy - I think that is obvious, McCarthy is an elite QB. I've never heard of anyone thinking Milton is better. If Milton had stuck around for 2021 to battle with McNamara, he probably would have been gone by 2023 anyway. Maybe the hypothetical just brings him right back to Tennessee anyway.
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Other than for the purposes of the debate of the last 4 years, I don't really care what happens to Joe Milton in the NFL. I'm a college football fan who loves Jaime Morris, Devin Bush, Denard Robinson, and Jeremy Gallon and many more players who had irrelevant NFL careers.
I'll cheer for him surprising us all, but I don't expect much of Milton and I don't care much about what he does in the pros. That seems to be of more interest to you.
His college resume stands on it's own merits. His college career is #case closed. His college career was a massive success in every objective measure given where he was in 2018, the bumps in the road on the way in 2020 and 2021, and where he landed (SEC starter, Orange Bowl MVP, NFL draft selection).
As for the NFL draft spot -- Joe Milton isn't a feather in my cap at all. I don't think I ever predicted Joe Milton would get drafted. I only noted when other people did. The whole point of my argument isn't to taunt - it's to say you guys were unfair in your assessment of Milton over the years and he has proven you wrong on that front.
This came about in 2020 and it's gone on for the next 3-4 years like nothing happened. A lot has happened!
My comment on his NFL draft position is a direct response to you using Cox/Rudock arguments as definitive. I don't think it matters all that much in his college career because I remember Trezelle Jenkins, and Tom Brady, and Jaimie Morris, and Taco charlton and many more who college success wasn't reflected in their draft stock.
Oh and BTW I would have never thought to bring up where Milton was on the list of QBs taken in the draft until you mentioned within the last few weeks where Rudock ranked. It wasn't in the top 10 like Joe was though. Nobody can take away those 2 draft spots from your guy Jake, but everything else is advantage Milton.
@ Lank 7:46 p.m.
DeleteEverything else is advantage Milton, huh?
Teams started for: Rudock 2, Milton 2
CMP%: Rudock 61.7%, Milton 61.5%
Pass TDs: Rudock 54, Milton 37
Total TDs: Rudock 66, Milton 49
I didn't say Milton should move to TE. I said Dane Brugler reported that a lot of NFL teams think he will have to follow "the Logan Thomas plan."
Purposefully or not, you keep attributing things to me that OTHER PEOPLE are saying.
@Thunder
DeleteIn the ongoing debate with JE you chose to weigh in with something "other people are saying" about "the Logan Thomas Plan".
That's something I'm attributing to you because A) that's something you brought up and B) seemed to advocate with the comment "considering Drake Maye was also selected by the Patriots in this draft..."
If that was that, maybe it's an idle aside. But you went on to argue "it will color this discussion of Milton in the coming months and years." if it happens. I don't agree, unless YOU want to keep talking about Milton, whose college career is complete.
You brought it up. You said what you said. This was not a thread about Dane Bugler or about Joe Milton moving to TE. It's about the college career of Joe Milton. So I'm not sure what I'm ascribing to you that you take umbrage with exactly here - I'm responding to things you said.
Teams started for: Allan Bowman 2 McCarthy 1
Career comparison for Milton and Rudock:
Passer rating: Rudock 134 Milton 146
YPA: Rudock 7.3 Milton 8.2
TD-INT: Rudock 54-27 Milton 37-11
Milton is as accurate and more productive and efficient than Rudock while also being better at avoiding turnovers.
I'll give you that they produced similar rushing numbers on the ground tho. I hear Rudock was maybe headed for a move to RB until med school called...very disappointing either way, especially given he's got prototypical size standing at 6'3. Some people really thought he had pro potential....
The salient point here is related to Orji. We've been down this road before of dismissing and being aggressively negative in regard to a young Michigan QB based on a tiny sample size and his use in specialist role rush-package.
DeleteGiven how that worked out last time (Milton being named starter at Michigan and Tennessee, Orange Bowl MVP, NFL draft pick as a QB) it might be good touchpoint to reflect on History and see if there's any lessons to be learned.
For those that doubted MIlton in 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, and 2023 -- there could be a parallel situation in Orji's case since he's a young Jim Harbaugh recruit used in meaningful downs early in his career as a run-first QB.
Do I think Orji is going to be like MIlton? -- no! They are very different players. But I see similarities in their roles in year 1-2, the rawness of their passing skills coming in from high school, and the criticisms they've been subjected to based on very limited sample. At this moment of Milton's draft selection, it might be a good time to consider those similarities and that it might not be so terrible nor is it necessarily the case that Orji won't be able to pass effectively.
@ Lank 1:55 p.m.
DeleteThis thread isn't about the college career of Joe Milton. LOL. It's titled "Spring Game 2024: 5 Things to Watch."
I'm not saying Milton should move to TE. I don't give a rat's patoot what he does. I'm saying the Patriots spent the #3 overall pick on someone who's likely deemed as a franchise QB, so the path to playing time in New England is blocked for AT LEAST two years. Teams rarely draft two quarterbacks in the same class, and if one was a top-five pick...let's be honest, odds are that Joe Milton has close to a 0% chance of being the Patriots QB at any time in the future.
This isn't just a Joe Milton/New England thing. I would say the same thing if the Falcons picked a 6th round QB or if the Bears picked a 6th round QB or if the Vikings did following their 1st round picks in 2024.
The only difference is that, AS SOMEONE ELSE SAID, Joe Milton could "follow the Logan Thomas plan" and become a TE. Whereas Penix and Williams and McCarthy don't have the size or athleticism to play another position.
You said "everything else" except draft position was in favor of Milton over Rudock. I picked just a few categories where the numbers did not, in fact, favor Milton.
@ Lank 2:36 p.m.
DeleteYes, Joe Milton became a starter. At Michigan. He lost his job. At Michigan. Michigan got better when he left, both as a team and at the QB position.
If Orji is the second coming of Milton...I will be disappointed unless he also gets benched in favor of a better QB. A QB like Milton puts a cap on the team's possible success.
If Orji is a fringe NFL-caliber QB, as Milton and Rudock were, Michigan is a national championship contender.
DeleteIf he is just doing a bunch of running plays and can't pass, like Dylan McCaffrey or NIck Sheridan,....MIchigan may still be a playoff contender.
I dunno how Orji could possibly disappoint you given how low your expectations are. You already don't think Michigan can have an effective pass game with him.
"This thread isn't about the college career of Joe Milton. LOL. It's titled "Spring Game 2024: 5 Things to Watch."
DeleteYes the topic is Alex Orji -- who you and jel have decided already can't be effective, just like you decided in 2019 that Milton can't be effective, both based on tiny sample sizes.
That's the connection I made and JE picked up on, and used as an excuse to rail again on Joe Milton. With you piling on to talk about a move to TE that nobody else has brought up and has zilch to do with his college career, that I'm raising as relevant to the Orji takes.
Someone else said Joe Milton could be a 1st round pick. Someone else said Joe Milton has a very high ceiling because of his arm. Someone else said Joe Milton was "an average athlete". Who cares!
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2024-nfl-draft-grades-round-6-patriots-get-c-for-joe-milton-selection-ravens-earn-b-for-devin-leary/
People say things! You brought up the TE thing because you endorse the viewpoint.
BTW -- Michael Penix is 6'2 and 216 - that's big enough to play a lot of positions. McCarthy is a better athlete than Milton. Size isn't the issue here. Neither is athleticism. You want Milton to move to TE because, despite all his success at QB, you want those old takes to be right somehow in the end or maybe there's something unique to Milton you don't like to cause the years of ongoing negativity towards him.
Harbaugh disagreed with you. Heupel disagreed with you. The Pats GM disagrees with you. ...But OTHER PEOPLE ARE SAYING THINGS and you're just passing on the most relevant information around.
OK, Thunder
@ Lank 4:30 p.m.
DeleteI passed along relevant information to the discussion that I heard on a podcast I listened to either that morning or the day before. Period. End of story.
You sure do make a lot of assumptions.
It's your blog but it's not really on topic. As you said - the subject here was 1. spring game 2. Orji and 3. the parallel of Orji's college career and Milton's introduced by me.
DeleteSo talking about Joe Milton disappointing people as a pro and maybe moving to TE is, at best, deflection.
How did a post about spring football in Ann Arbor revert to Joe Milton?
ReplyDeleteIt's an oddity, isn't it? Sometimes people dig their heels in so much on a topic that a pretty irrelevant player in Michigan history - a guy who only started a few games in the midst of COVID on Jim Harbaugh's worst team - is still lodged in our head spaces four years later.
DeleteIf wardrobe matched commenting emphasis, Lank would rotate t-shirts between PRESIDENT OF THE JOE MILTON FAN CLUB and PRESIDENT OF THE DE'VEON SMITH FAN CLUB. And meanwhile, I would have PRESIDENT OF THE MICHAEL COX FAN CLUB and DENARD WASN'T THAT GREAT OF A QB.
Of course, I don't think about Michael Cox very often and I'm hoping Lank doesn't go to bed staring at a Joe Milton poster taped to his ceiling.
But when it comes to posting on this here blog...it very much seems like an obsession.
Very technically, I didn't bring up Joe Milton first. That was another commenter.
DeleteAlso -- The Denard shirt would read "Not a good QB" and should have his smiling photo on it for maximum effect. You probably won't get beat up on the streets of Ann Arbor for wearing it, because people are too nice. But try the same with Hurts in Philly or Jackson in Baltimore and .... YMMV.