Thursday, March 13, 2025

Ranking Michigan's Quarterbacks

 [caption id="attachment_22250" align="aligncenter" width="460"] Drew Henson (image via Detroit News)[/caption]

This was originally posted on March 17, 2017. It has been updated following the 2024 season.

Sports fans love to debate the greatness of players and rank them in order from most revered to most despised. And while despised probably doesn't fit any of these players, since they played for the University of Michigan, we all have our favorites. I have endeavored to achieve the un-possible: Rank all of Michigan's starting quarterbacks.

Okay, that's too tall of a task for me right now. I'm working up to it. So I'm only going back to 1995, which was the beginning of the Lloyd Carr era. That's the earliest full coaching tenure where I can count on my recollections of Michigan football. I was a big fan of Bo Schembechler, Gary Moeller, and the Michigan Wolverines before then, but I'll be damned if I say I was aware enough to understand what was happening on the field.

This ranking only takes into account what the quarterbacks achieved wearing the winged helmet. High school highlight tapes and NFL performance aren't taken into account. (After all, we can agree that Tom Brady is far and away the best quarterback who ever played the game of football, and that includes Uncle Rico.)

So if you were starting a season with your pick of any Michigan QB since 1995, which one would you take?

On with the show:


1. J.J. MCCARTHY
Record as starter: 27-1 from 2021-2023
Career statistics: 482/713 (67.6%), 6226 yards, 49 TDs, 11 INTs; 161 carries for 632 yards, 11 TDs
Biggest win: Though his completion percentage was nothing special, McCarthy had some signature plays in the 2022 game against Ohio State, completing 12/24 throws for 263 yards and 3 touchdowns, while also running 6 times for 27 yards and 1 score. Michigan beat the Buckeyes by a score of 45-23.
Why the ranking? McCarthy set several records at Michigan, including best record as a starter (27-1), and he tied for the most wins in a single season (15-0 in 2023). The fact that he won a national championship puts him in the discussion for #1 on the list, and then when you throw in his accuracy, timely playmaking, and running ability, it's really a no-brainer.

2. TOM BRADY
Record as starter: 20-5 from 1995-1999
Career statistics: 443/711 (62.3%), 5351 yards, 35 TDs, 19 INTs
Biggest win: In the Orange Bowl against Alabama in 1999, Brady led a second-half comeback win and finished 34/46 for 369 yards, 4 TDs, and 0 INTs.
Why the ranking? People might say that Michigan fans are only huge Brady fans in retrospect, but his senior year saw him throw 20 TDs and just 6 INTs while completing 62.8% of his throws. Sure, there were some growing pains along the way, but he ultimately went 20-5 and made Michigan fans proud. Michigan fans like me were anxious to see Drew Henson, but we also were confused when Henson was taking time away from a stellar Tom Brady in 1999.

3. DREW HENSON
Record as starter: 6-2 from 1998-2000
Career statistics: 214/374 (57.2%), 2946 yards, 24 TDs, 7 INTs; 67 carries for 46 yards, 4 TDs
Biggest win: Henson led the Wolverines to a 38-26 win over the Ohio State Buckeyes in November of 2000. He didn't complete a high percentage of his passes (14/25 or 56%), but he did throw for 303 yards, 3 TDs, and 1 INT, along with a 1-yard touchdown run.
Why the ranking? Henson's numbers and winning percentage aren't exemplary, but the trajectory of his career was headed in a positive direction when he decided to quit football in favor of a baseball career. His completion percentage improved from 45% as a freshman to 52% as a sophomore to 62% as a junior. He also threw for 18 TDs and just 4 INTs in his final season. During his junior year, he was outstanding.

4. JAKE RUDOCK
Record as starter: 10-3 in 2015
Career statistics: 249/389 (64.0%), 3017 yards, 20 TDs, 9 INTs; 58 carries for 166 yards, 4 TDs
Biggest win: Michigan had a ballyhooed matchup with the Florida Gators in the Gator Bowl, and that resulted in a 41-7 victory for the Wolverines. Rudock completed 20/31 passes for 278 yards and 3 TDs, and he ran 4 times for 29 yards.
Why the ranking? Rudock only spent one season in Ann Arbor after transferring from Iowa. He started off with mediocre performances since he didn't arrive on campus until August, but as his chemistry built with his receivers, he turned in one of the best passing seasons in Michigan history.

5. CADE MCNAMARA
Record as starter: 12-3 from 2019-2022
Career statistics: 267/423 (63.1%), 3181 yards, 21 TDs, 7 INTs; 46 carries for 3 yards, 2 TDs
Biggest win: Michigan's 42-27 win over Ohio State - the first victory over OSU in a decade - was the most important Michigan win in years, it not decades. Not only did it propel Michigan to its first Big Ten Championship game appearance, but it also set the stage for the Wolverines to make the College Football Playoff for the first time. McNamara completed 13/19 passes for 159 yards, 0 touchdowns, and 1 interception, and he ran 1 time for 9 yards. Those aren't stellar numbers, but he mostly kept the ball out of harm's way and managed the team to victory.
Why the ranking? McNamara and Rudock are neck-and-neck and their stats are extremely close, but I give the edge to Rudock for having to adjust on the fly in his one season at Michigan and for having less offensive talent around him. McNamara benefited from a superior run game and more receiving talent overall, but he was an accurate thrower who generally made good decisions.

6. BRIAN GRIESE
Record as starter: 17-5 from 1993-1997
Career statistics: 355/606 (58.6%), 4383 yards, 33 TDs, 18 INTs
Biggest win: It's tough not to pick an Ohio State victory, but Griese wasn't the savior on that day in 1997. He did, however, play an excellent game in the "national championship game," the Rose Bowl victory over Washington State that sealed a share of the title. He threw a touchdown pass in each of the final quarters to lead Michigan to a 21-16 win, ending up 18/30 for 251 yards, the 3 TDs, and 1 INT.
Why the ranking? Griese deserves a lot of credit for managing the 1997 team to 13 victories and 0 losses. He didn't make backbreaking mistakes, and he got the ball to the right people. He also didn't have a great backfield or a truly elite wide receiver. What he did have was a great offensive line and a great defense. Michigan's 2016 defense was often compared to the 1997 version, but one huge difference between 13-0 and 10-3 is the offensive line. Regardless, Griese wasn't a great quarterback, but he was the right guy for the job at the time.

7. CHAD HENNE
Record as starter: 34-13 from 2004-2007
Career statistics: 828/1387 (59.7%), 9715 yards, 87 TDs, 37 INTs
Biggest win: Michigan State finished 5-7 in 2004, but there's never any love lost between MSU and Michigan. In Henne's freshman year, he helped Braylon Edwards put on an epic performance in a 45-37, triple-overtime win over the Spartans. Henne was 24/35 for 273 yards and 4 TDs, including the game-winning 24-yarder to Edwards.
Why the ranking? Much like John Navarre, Henne put up some very good numbers, but those were buoyed by the fact that he was a four-year starter. He was 0-4 against Ohio State, and he consistently struggled with his accuracy. Moreso than any other QB on this list except for Shane Morris (see below), Henne seemed unable to take any velocity off his throws, and those bullets often glanced off someone's hands or didn't give receivers enough time to adjust. He had some gutsy performances when dealing with injury, but ultimately, his performance was good but not great.

8. SHEA PATTERSON
Record as starter:
19-7 from 2018-2019
Career statistics: 424/706 (60.1%), 5661 yards, 45 TDs, 15 INTs; 163 carries for 323 yards (2.0 YPC), 7 TDs
Biggest win: The 45-14 win over Notre Dame in 2019 probably ranks as his biggest victory, even if the running game paved the way to victory. Patterson was just 6/12 for 100 yards and 2 touchdowns, and his 11 carries for 2 yards didn't move the needle much. But it was a huge win over a team that finished #12 in the country. Oh, and it was Notre Dame.
Why the ranking? Patterson was ranked #5 going into the 2019 season, but his performance as a senior was somewhat lackluster. A more wide open offense should have helped, but he got flustered under pressure, something that shouldn't happen so much to a seasoned veteran. He also did not run the ball as well as he should have, and while some of that falls on the coaches, Patterson also carries some of the blame. Still, he was a talented QB who could throw and run.

9. DEVIN GARDNER
Record as starter: 15-13 from 2010-2014
Career statistics: 475/787 (60.4%), 6336 yards, 44 TDs, 32 INTs; 342 carries for 916 yards, 24 TDs
Biggest win: The 2013 win over Indiana had eye-popping numbers (503 passing yards, for example), but Notre Dame was coming off of a national championship game appearance and got beaten down by Gardner and company in 2013. In the 41-30 victory, Gardner was 21/33 for 4 TDs and 1 INT while also running 13 times for 82 yards and 1 TD.
Why the ranking? I love Devin Gardner's physical abilities and leadership qualities, and I'm in agreement with many Michigan fans: What would Gardner have achieved under the coaching of Jim Harbaugh? We'll never know, and that makes it difficult to place Gardner on this list. I want to rank him higher, but ultimately, he made some really ugly turnovers and didn't win enough games. He was doomed by a coach whose career was going into a tailspin and the worst offensive line performance in decades. I know people will get upset with me for placing him above Robinson, and Gardner didn't have the same abilities to run; but Gardner was a superior passer and very effective with his legs.

[caption id="attachment_22251" align="aligncenter" width="460"] Denard Robinson (image via Dr. Saturday)[/caption]

10. DENARD ROBINSON
Record as starter: 23-11 from 2009-2012
Career statistics: 427/747 (57.2%), 6250 yards, 49 TDs, 39 INTs; 723 carries for 4495 yards, 42 TDs
Biggest win: Robinson's performances went up and down as a passer, even though he was always a dangerous runner. He didn't have a great night against Notre Dame in 2011, but the team ultimately came out with a win in the initial Under the Lights matchup. Robinson (and Jeremy Gallon) had some late-game heroics that led to a 35-31 win. Robinson was 11/24 for 338 yards, 4 TDs, and 3 INTs, and he also ran 16 times for 108 yards and 1 TD.
Why the ranking? Okay, I'm on the record as saying that Denard Robinson wasn't a great quarterback, though he was an excellent runner. With all the talk about how a running quarterback changes the game, Robinson's win-loss record wasn't great - despite Brady Hoke's inaugural 11-2 season. He also turned over the ball too much (39 INTs, plus too many fumbles) and had a career completion percentage of just over 57%. He did some great things while at Michigan, but his throwing abilities were lacking.

11. JOHN NAVARRE
Record as starter: 31-11 from 1999-2003
Career statistics: 765/1366 (56.0%), 9254 yards, 72 TDs, 31 INTs
Biggest win: Navarre's 2003 win against Ohio State was significant. It propelled Michigan to a Rose Bowl appearance, and it gave the Wolverines a victory over the previously 10-1 Buckeyes. But that's not the game I think of when it comes to Navarre. He led Michigan's all-time best comeback on the road at Minnesota. This is one of those games where I remember exactly where I was and who I was with when watching that game on TV. Michigan was down 28-7 against the Gophers before Navarre turned on the jets - (almost) literally. In addition to completing 33/47 passes for 353 yards, 2 TDs, and 1 INT, he also caught a 36-yard TD pass from Steve Breaston on a "Transcontinental" throwback to the QB. The Wolverines won, 38-35.
Why the ranking? Despite setting a bunch of records at Michigan - largely because he started for three full seasons and part of a fourth - Navarre had an uncanny knack for getting his passes batted down at the line of scrimmage, an impressive feat for a 6'6" quarterback. He was slow and rather inaccurate, and he even had a good supporting cast around him that included the likes of Chris Perry, Anthony Thomas, Braylon Edwards, Jason Avant, and Marquise Walker.

12. WILTON SPEIGHT
Record as starter: 13-3 from 2014-2017
Career statistics: 257/437 (58.8%), 3192 yards, 22 TDs, 10 INTs
Biggest win: Michigan State was terrible (3-9) in 2016, but that doesn't change the fact that they had dominated the series against Michigan in recent years. Speight was 16/25 for 244 yards, 0 TDs, and 1 INT, so it wasn't a great game, but he did well enough to end the losing streak against the Spartans.
Why the ranking? Speight had a chance to move up (or down) in 2017, but he struggled early in the year against mediocre teams (54.3% completions, 3 TD, 2 INT) before getting injured. That leaves him right where he was previously, though I strongly considered placing him below Dreisbach.

13. SCOTT DREISBACH
Record as starter: 12-3 from 1994-1998
Career statistics: 208/380 (54.7%), 2920 yards, 15 TDs, 12 INTs; 81 carries, 51 yards, 2 TDs
Biggest win: In Lloyd Carr's first game as head coach, Dreisbach brought the Wolverines back from a 17-0 deficit against the Virginia Cavaliers, culminating in a late, game-winning touchdown pass to Mercury Hayes. In that game he was 27/52 for 372 yards, 2 TDs, and 2 INTs; those passing attempts and passing yardage were records for Michigan at the time.
Why the ranking? Dreisbach didn't put up great numbers and played for a run-heavy team that didn't count on him a ton, but he had a solid record and made some big plays - including a memorable 72-yard run against Illinois. Injuries and other talented quarterbacks shortened his career, and he came off the bench for the final two years of his career. But some people forget that when he went 4-0 in 1995, he was just a redshirt freshman.

14. TATE FORCIER
Record as starter: 5-7 from 2009-2010
Career statistics: 219/365 (60.0%), 2647 yards, 17 TDs, 14 INTs; 140 carries for 291 yards, 4 TDs
Biggest win: The Notre Dame game was the biggest game in 2009. Michigan pulled off a 38-34 upset that included a 31-yard TD run by Forcier and then the game-winning touchdown pass to wideout Greg Mathews with just 11 seconds remaining in the game. On that day Forcier was 23/33 for 240 yards, 2 TDs, and 1 INT, and he ran the ball 13 times for 70 yards and the 1 TD. He looked like Rich Rodriguez's next big thing at the time, though his star faded after that point.
Why the ranking? There's no doubt that Forcier was a talented player, but he was a risk-taker and gunslinger without the necessary arm strength, judgment, and supporting cast to make that work. Attitude and off-the-field issues seemed to contribute to his demise, since he was academically ineligible after 2010.

15. BRANDON PETERS
Record as starter: 2-2 in 2017
Career statistics: 57/108 (52.8%), 672 yards, 4 TDs, 2 INTs
Biggest win: Choices are limited so far, but Peters took his team on the road at Maryland, averaged 8.1 yards per attempt, and threw 2 touchdowns with 0 turnovers. That's more impressive than the Minnesota win when Chris Evans and Karan Higdon ran roughshod over the Gophers on a rainy night.
Why the ranking? Peters showed flashes of great play, combined with some silly mistakes. If Michigan's offensive line play were on par with the 2007 group for Mallett below, then I think Peters would have played pretty well. Peters can put more touch on the ball, and he's more athletic than Mallett. Peters transferred to Illinois after the 2018 season.

16. RYAN MALLETT
Record as starter: 3-0 in 2007
Career statistics: 61/141 (43.3%), 892 yards, 7 TDs, 5 INTs
Biggest win: In his second career start, Mallett was 16/29 for 170 yards, 0 TDs, and 1 INT against Penn State. But he helped the Wolverines to a 14-9 win over the Nittany Lions, who finished the year with a 9-4 record, and that game included a seemingly unlikely touchdown scramble from the 6'7", 252-pounder. It wasn't as dominant of a win as the 38-0 victory over Notre Dame the previous week, but the Fighting Irish finished 3-9 that year.
Why the ranking? Mallett's numbers weren't great, and he had the advantage of handing off to Mike Hart and throwing to the likes of Mario Manningham. So he had a better supporting cast than many of the quarterbacks on this list, but quarterbacks are measured by wins, and he found a way to help the Wolverines to that 3-0 record during his time.

17. STEVE THREET
Record as starter: 2-6 from 2007-2008
Career statistics: 102/200 (51%), 1105 yards, 9 TDs, 7 INTs; 76 carries for 201 yards, 2 TDs
Biggest win: Michigan stunned Wisconsin with a 27-25 victory over the Badgers in 2008. Threet struggled throwing the ball (12/31 for 96 yards, 1 TD, and 2 INTs), but the 6'6" Threet stunned everyone with a 58-yard run and ended the game with 9 carries for 89 yards.
Why the ranking? Threet had some potential, but he was unlucky throughout his career. He enrolled early at Georgia Tech just before they moved to a triple-option offense, so he dodged a bullet in order fall into the arms of pro-style QB haven Michigan . . . and then Lloyd Carr retired to be replaced by a spread option coach in Rich Rodriguez. After one season of not working out, he transferred to Arizona State and then retired from football due to concussions. Maybe he could have carved out a more lasting legacy if he had graduated from high school 5-10 years earlier, but that's the way things go sometimes.

18. JOE MILTON
Record as starter: 2-3 from 2018-2020
Career statistics: 86/152 (56.6%), 1194 yards, 5 TDs, 6 INTs; 50 carries for 156 yards, 3 TDs
Biggest win: Michigan began Milton's first season as a starter with a good looking win over the Minnesota Gophers, a 49-24 victory that saw Milton get a lot of hype. He completed 15/22 passes for 225 yards and 1 touchdown; he also ran 8 times for 52 yards and 1 touchdown.
Why the ranking? Though technically 2-3 as a starter, that Minnesota victory was really the only one for Milton. He was yanked in Michigan's only other 2020 victory - the Rutgers game - after completing 5/12 passes and recording 2 rushing attempts for -16 yards. Backup Cade McNamara brought the Wolverines back in what turned out to be a shootout to win the game. Milton was inaccurate and frequently made poor decisions, which negated his size, considerable arm strength, and above average speed.

19. JOHN O'KORN
Record as starter: 3-3 from 2015-2017
Career statistics: 104/191 (54.4%), 1146 yards, 4 TDs, 6 INTs
Biggest win: In his only start for an injured Wilton Speight in 2016, O'Korn didn't play well but sparked a late surge with a 30-yard scramble. While he won two more games in 2017, neither was a significant performance. In a non-starting experience, O'Korn played very well against Purdue in 2017 coming in for Speight; O'Korn finished 18/26 for 270 yards, 1 TD, and 1 INT.
Why the ranking? O'Korn played fairly well when he was inserted as a backup late in games, but he didn't play so well in his  starts. He struggled mightily against Michigan State and Penn State, and he made some very frustrating plays against Ohio State in 2017. Unlike a couple of the guys below him, you saw his potential.

20. DAVIS WARREN
Record as starter: 6-3 from 2021-2024
Career statistics: 139/223 (62.3%), 1288 yards, 7 TDs, 10 INTs
Biggest win: Warren went into Columbus, OH, in late November 2024 and helped Michigan beat the Ohio State Buckeyes by a score of 13-10. He didn't play a great game (9/16, 62 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs), but a win is a win when it comes to OSU.
Why the ranking? Warren had a few big wins as a starter, beating Ohio State, Alabama, and Michigan State, among others. He made some really nice throws at times, but those were mixed in with a lot of head-scratching attempts.

21. ALEX ORJI
Record as starter: 2-1 from 2022-2024
Career statistics: 26/48 (54.2%), 155 yards, 3 TDs, 2 INTs; 78 carries for 392 yards, 4 TDs
Biggest win: Orji was part of a huge come-from-behind victory against USC in his first career start, completing 7/12 passes for 32 yards and running 13 times for 43 yards. While the individual performance wasn't anything special, it gave Michigan a little bit of juice when they needed a spark.
Why the ranking? Despite the physical talents Orji possessed as a 6'3", 236 lb., powerful athlete, the coaching staff did not trust him to throw the ball downfield at all. A better offensive coordinator might have squeezed something more out of him, but in a Michigan uniform, he really struggled to run an offense.

22. JACK TUTTLE
Record as starter: 0-1 from 2023-2024
Career statistics: 45/67 (67.2%), 436 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs
Biggest win: Tuttle didn't win a game as a starter. He relieved Orji in a loss against Washington and won the starting job, and then the next week, he started against Illinois and then retired from football after getting concussed.
Why the ranking? It's tough to reconcile Tuttle the player with the record, at least when it comes to figuring out where to place him toward the bottom of the list. He clearly had talent when it comes to size, speed, and accuracy, but ultimately, his fragility did him in. It appeared the coaching staff probably thought he could go into 2024 as the starter to succeed J.J. McCarthy, but they probably should have recognized his injury history. He won fewer games than Sheridan, who is ranked below him, but if you could play a video game with him and turn off the injuries, Tuttle would certainly be the choice.

23. NICK SHERIDAN
Record as starter: 1-3 from 2007-2010
Career statistics: 70/148 (47.3%), 701 yards, 2 TDs, 6 INTs; 45 carries for 103 yards, 1 TD
Biggest win: Naturally, it's his only win, but he also played a good game. He was 18/30 for 203 yards, 1 TD, and 0 INTs. He also ran 8 times or 33 yards in the 29-6 win over the Minnesota Gophers at the Metrodome.
Why the ranking? Sheridan did not have a good career, but as a walk-on from Saline, he wasn't expected to do much in college. He fell into a situation where Michigan was lacking quarterbacks and he happened to be somewhat mobile for Rich Rodriguez's offense, so Sheridan made the best of it.

24. SHANE MORRIS
Record as starter: 0-2 from 2013-2016
Career statistics: 47/92 (51.1%), 434 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT; 18 carries for 87 yards (4.8 YPC)
Biggest win: N/A
Why the ranking? Morris arrived at Michigan when Brady Hoke's regime was on a downward slide, but Morris did nothing to stem the tide. Even with two years of Jim Harbaugh's coaching, he rose no higher than third on the depth chart and never accounted for a touchdown during his four years on campus.

Let the arguments begin.

28 comments:

  1. Brian Griese is arguably the most underrated Michigan QB. The guy won a Natty. For one season, he did everything he needed to do to win every game. I can understand putting him behind Brady/JJ/Henson. But to put him behind Ruddock and Cade is too much! Especially Cade.

    We would not even take Cade back when our QB room is empty. I do not think Cade would be that much of an upgrade over our last year's QB. He won because of Harbaugh. If you gave Harbaugh the truth serum and asked him to pick a QB, I think he would pick Griese over Cade. Put Griese in Cade's shoes, I think we would have made the Finals or even win the Natty that year.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Agree on Griese

      And Cade - while part of a resurgence - belongs far down this list

      Orji could be dead last. Not a very good runner unless defenses just ignored him, and his career passing yards are less than Tuttle, Morris and even Sheridan in ONE game

      Delete
    2. Also agree about Brian Griese. That he was a 3rd round draft pick and had some success as an NFL starter speaks to his abilities.

      Delete
    3. Rudock and McNamara ahead of Griese as QBs just fails the basic sniff test. But I've voiced this before and Thunder is locked in on ignoring anything but a limited range of passing stats for these players times at Michigan. As if it's a court of law and we're not allowed to admit evidence like: Tom Brady was actually an epicly talented passer and McNamara isn't good enough to start at Iowa.

      On Griese specifically - his 63% completion percentage in '97 led the conference. Mcnamara's 64% completion percentage in '21 is far less impressive given the difference in eras. Comparing stats between the two is debatable head to head, but in the context of pass-friendly eras, Griese was far better (as his NFL career substantiates).



      Delete
    4. "As if it's a court of law and we're not allowed to admit evidence"

      Gaslighting at its peak ... not allowed? You post more than anyone here, probably combined. And, it's almost always to disagree

      Delete
  2. McNamara's inclusion in the top 5 of this list gets funnier each year. I would argue no QB in Michigan history has been helped more by his supporting cast. McNamara sucked in 2020 and has sucked every year since 2021. Just look where he is now.

    That all tells you that 2021 was a magical year where everything went right to hide all his flaws. But now, in the clear light of day, the pumpkin is a pumpkin again, and it always was a pumpkin.

    In other words, McNamara sucked in 2021 as well, MIchigan just put him in a optimal position to succeed. That's a credit to the coaches and players around him, not him.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Brian Griese's TD-to-INT ratio prior to 1997: 13 to 10
      Brian Griese's TD-to-INT ratio in 1997: 14 to 5

      It seems like getting put in a good position has been helpful for multiple quarterbacks.

      As mentioned above, Griese's NFL Draft status and moderate NFL success have no bearing on the ranking. Nor does McNamara's performance at Iowa.

      This is talking about what they achieved in a Michigan uniform.

      Delete
    2. You can disregard relevant information if you like Thunder. But we know that Brian Griese was a very good QB and we know McNamara isn't, from things that happened outside of MIchigan. That info affects how we evaluate them AT Michigan. Because it matters.

      Cade McNamara's TD-INT ratio was worse in 2021 and worse prior to 2021 and after 2021. What are we even talking about here? Griese WAS put in a good situation in 1997 but he proved subsequent to that that he wasn't just riding other people coattails but that he was a legit NFL player.

      Anyway, If we are ONLY talking about what they achieved at Michigan only......what is Tuttle doing anything but last on the list LOL. The best thing he achieved at Michigan was mop up duty during blowouts early in 2023. After that he was actively losing games for Michigan! The speculation that he had secret talent seems to be weighing very heavily in Tuttle's evaluation -- "if you could play a video game with him"?!?

      I mean let's be serious. We are talking here about video games and fantastical talent assessments as being relevant to "WHY THE RANKING" while ignoring what guys do in the NFL and as transfers at other major programs.

      "This is talking about what they achieved in a Michigan uniform."
      Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't, it seems.

      More honestly, this is just a listing of Thunder's favs. No way in the world did Jake Rudock achieve more than Denard Robinson or Chad Henne or Brian Griese, to name just a few.

      Delete
  3. Tuttle should be last on this list. Period.

    Tuttle was substantially worse than Orji in 2024. MAYBE if he was healthy it would have been different but Tuttle cost us 2 games we should have won. Orji had a QBR of 41 on the season and Tuttle had a QBR of 31. Orji beat USC and Minn as a starter and Orji also helped us beat MSU and OSU as a backup. No contest if we're being honest. Tuttle should be last on this list if we're going by seasons at Michigan.

    "It's tough to reconcile Tuttle the player with the record"
    It really is not. He is not a talented player! He just looks like a guy that some people want their QBs to look like and that's it. This is a guy who couldn't hack it at Utah or Indiana! He got benched for a guy who ended up at Bowling Green. And he stunk at Michigan even after 4 years at Indiana (with a passer rating of only 100).

    He is not a good or talented QB and 7 years in college made that abundantly clear.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I mean, the QBR stuff is fun and everything, but Tuttle only played against Washington and Illinois. Washington was a solid team, and Illinois went 10-3, I believe.

      Orji played against a couple tough teams, but he also got to play against Fresno State. He had a passer rating of 60.86, 0.00, and 5.60 in the last three games in which he was trusted to pass (Washington, Oregon, and Alabama, respectively).

      Tuttle's passer rating was 108.51 and 110.85 in the two games in which he played. No cupcakes.

      Trying to drag down Tuttle by saying he lost his job to a guy who went to BGSU ignores the fact that Orji got beaten out by a walk-on (Davis Warren)...

      ...AND THE GUY WHO GOT BEATEN OUT BY A GUY WHO WENT TO BGSU!

      If we're using that line of thinking...

      Connor Bazelak is better than...
      Jack Tuttle, who is better than...
      Davis Warren, who is better than...
      Alex Orji, who is better than...
      umm...Jayden Denegal?

      Delete
    2. Orji faced better defenses and did better. You're making the case for him by bringing this up Thunder. Minnesota's D is better than Washington's. USC's defense is better than Illinois.

      Orji also played against OSU and Alabama and Oregon and Texas and Indiana -- which are top 20 defenses. Tuttle did not. Orji also played against Washington (you are hanging the loss on him on the list above, because he started, but Tuttle got most of the snaps in the game - so it should hang on him).

      Tuttle's 2 games were against defenses that fell in the bottom half of our schedule. And he SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKed against them.

      Also, as has been discussed heavily in this space, Orji's rushing ability at QB is his biggest strength and that's not going to be factored into passer rating at all. Orji's 29 yard run against OSU was the offenses' longest gain of the day. But yes, Tuttle in year 7 had a passer rating of 110 while Orji in year 3 (playing tougher competition) had a passer rating of 93. So edge to him there LOL.

      I'm not "dragging down" Tuttle. He dragged down himself. You are over here arguing he is secretly some sort of special talent who inexplicably didn't perform...but he got benched for Connor Bazelack and failed to beat out Warren or Orji. This is not a group of guys that objective folks look at and callout as talented guys who underachieved mysteriously. We just say these guys don't have much talent relative to like guys that are going to be in the NFL.

      Like I get that you hold this opinion that Tuttle is secretly super talented, but 7 years into his career and on his 3rd school, it's extremely far-fetched to keep saying this against all facts and data. Maybe Alex Malzone secretly super talented too -- there's just zero evidence to support that assertion.

      Delete
    3. I think this is a fair debate. But, orji-tuttle played one game on the same team behind the same OL, with the same skill players around them, against the same Defense and at the same location & same evening. One moved the offense, if only short term. The other was benched, and didn't see the field again for a couple weeks. Here's some data:
      Tuttle completed more than 3x the passes; Orji had ONE game in his entire career with as many completions; Tuttle threw for more than 6x the yards; Tuttle threw one TD pass, tying orji's single game TD record, in three years; Tuttle's QBR was more than twice Orji's
      Tuttle belongs toward the bottom of this list, but in the same exact circumstance, we saw who the worse QB was

      *all of this while Orji was relatively healthy and Tuttle had not fully recovered from injury, retiring after the next game

      Delete
    4. Boiling down a career all to one game is moving the goalposts but even then it's not a good analysis to just compare the stats. Tuttle "moved the ball" when he subbed in and surprised a defense that prepared for a different starter and was holding a lead. Then he turned it over to Washington on consecutive possessions, costing Michigan the game. (Orji had no turnovers.) Michigan's D locked Washington down in the second half except when Tuttle handed them short fields. That loss is on him.

      Thunder's fantasy is that Tuttle is talented and would have showed more if healthy.

      Mine is that Michigan beats Washington and Illinois if Orji plays QB instead of Tuttle (just as they beat better teams -- USC and Minny). It was a terrible decision by the coaching staff and the OC was rightfully fired after the season. Should have played run-heavy ball control offense (like they did against OSU and Bama and Minny and USC) but they tried to win through the air and so they lost.

      Delete
    5. Dodge the facts Lank, switch to hypotheticals ... LMAO
      #jeDub

      Delete
    6. RESPONDING TO ATROLLMarch 17, 2025 at 4:18 PM

      The facts are spelled out. Tuttle stunk and lost us both games he played in. The hypothetical is pretending he has talent when he didn't show it - at Michigan, Indiana, or Utah.

      Orji WON both games he was lead QB for. Not because he's awesome but because he wasn't a turnover machine like Tuttle. He played BETTER defenses. He produced BETTER results. He was trusted to play a role on the 2023 national champs and throughout 2024. These are facts.

      Delete
    7. "stunk" is not a fact, but your opinion

      The facts are what you just dodged (again) ... same offense, same game, against the same defense
      #dotheyknow

      Delete
    8. Tuttle's QBR was twice that of Orji in the same game, on the same evening and against the same Defense
      https://www.espn.com/college-football/boxscore/_/gameId/401628505


      But if we want to compare the gimmick v the gimp all season:
      Less attempts, despite playing all season v TWO games
      Less completions, because obviously
      HALF the passing yards
      Lower Compl Percentage
      Half the YPA
      Just under half the furthest pass
      *more TDs, but none over 1oyds
      Tied in INT, despite less Attempts
      LOWER! QB RTG
      https://www.espn.com/college-football/team/stats/_/id/130/table/passing/sort/QBRating/dir/desc

      Delete
    9. *that's 11o for Tuttle v only 92 for the gimmick, who was dead last among QBs with significant snaps


      https://www.espn.com/college-football/team/stats/_/id/130/table/passing/sort/QBRating/dir/desc

      Delete
    10. 14 Mar at 1:43PM:
      "Orji had a 'QBR' of 41 on the season and Tuttle had a 'QBR' of 31"

      I provided QBR, and then passer rating. Also provided every QB stat on ESPN ... the gimmick performed worse (despite severe restrictions on his passing), even in a room of inferior QBs
      Behind the same OL, along with the same "playmakers," and against the same Defenses
      #statsnotfeelings

      Delete
  4. I love this post. It is evergreen content that always can start an argument LOL.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Thunder: "Denard Robinson wasn't a great quarterback, though he was an excellent runner."

    It's an interesting hypothetical to wonder what Robinson would have accomplished had he been slotted as a RB only. Obviously his size argued against such an assignment, but the point of the thought exercise is to test how good of a pure runner he was.

    My prediction: not as good a runner as he appeared out of the QB slot, as the threat of him throwing or keeping created enough uncertainty to make defenders just a tad less aggressive. But if he was coming out of the backfield with the ball, they would have been able to defend better. His main threat was the quickness *after* he got a step or two under him. He didn't have the cut of, say, a Blake Corum, nor that first-step quickness, as Mississippi State so ably demonstrated by boxing him in and containing him for that bowl game. But if he had a step or two under him, and a defender took an angle that was just a bit too hopeful, then he was gone. But a disciplined defender could box him in.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. He wasn't a very good RB. The whole reason Denard was so good was that he could run and pass both. He wasn't good enough at passing to be a pocket passing QB and he wasn't good enough at being RB to do all the things RBs have to do. It was the fact that he was pretty good at both things that made him special in college.

      Obviously he had speed that he could leverage at the college level more readily and enough talent/potential as a ball-carrier to be drafted, but he didn't ever thrive in the RB role either at Michigan or in the NFL. As a RB he was kinda JAG. As a dual threat QB he was a Heisman contender.

      Maybe it would have been different if he had played RB all through High School and developed all those skills, but I kind of doubt it.

      I think the real hypothetical for Denard is what would have happened if he left Michigan and played for a better OC rather than getting square-pegged by Al Borges/Brady Hoke.

      Delete
    2. If he'd been at a lesser-conference school with a coach/OC that used him better, he could have set records. But the talent level in the defensive units in the Big Ten (some schools, not all) and the SEC (some schools, not all) mitigated what he brought to the table. But Robinson utilized as a true dual-threat in Big 12, or Pac 12, or Mountain West would have been something.

      Hoke/Borges definitely did him no favors, yet despite that he was able to get some things done. But the offensive scheme definitely hampered him.

      Another hypothetical: imagine Denard was a sophomore in 2015 when Harbaugh arrived. What would Harbaugh have done with him? Something more creative than Hoke/Borges, I suspect, but definitely not a true spread/shred offense. Would Harbaugh have squeezed more QB out of him?

      Final hypothetical -- in the wake of the screaming success of Mike Sainristil moving to DB, I wonder how Robinson would have done there had he the desire and the coaching?

      Delete
    3. I think Harbaugh would have recruited over Denard and/or changed his position. As much as Harbaugh was able to maximize players' talents and play two-way guys like Jabrill Peppers, I think Harbaugh would have wanted a more traditional quarterback (a.k.a. better thrower/passer) at the helm.

      I think Denard would have been a change-up QB and a running back under Harbaugh . . . or he would have transferred.

      Delete
    4. I think for example Urban Meyer or Dan Mullen could have produced exceptional results with Denard, even though they tend to favor bigger body QBs.

      I don't agree with the comments about talent level - Denard had huge days against some high talent teams (e.g., Notre Dame, Penn State) throughout his career. There wasn't a ton of talent around him (compared to the Harbaugh era) on offense and most losses were on the defense ultimately, not Denard. As you said -- the scheme definitely hampered him.

      We'll never know.

      As for fit with Harbaugh - I think he was a lot more flexible than people give him credit for. He evolved to drop the FB from the offense, used FBs as RBs situationally, moved from a pocket passer to dual threat in the NFL, etc. The changes from 2015 to 2023 and in between were pretty substantial, though you can pry his TEs away from his cold dead hands LOL.

      Harbaugh being open to using a dual threat QB at starter at Michigan would have depended somewhat on what OC Harbaugh was working with. But I think he would have handled it way better than Hoke/Borges did. But regardless of who the coach was, Denard was simply too good to not use at QB at the college level. Putting him at RB just neutralizes his talents. But in 2015 -- he might still have been a developmental red-shirt guy as sophomore since Harbaugh generally put a lot on his players plates. Your typical sophomore might not be ready.

      But if you switch spots in the hypothetical (Harbaugh takes over for Rodriguez in 2011 with Mattison as his DC) I think it's a successful marriage. Harbaugh loves to run the ball and 2011 offense was very good at running the ball.

      Delete
    5. @ Lank

      Naturally, this Blogger forum does not allow for banning, but if it did, you would be banned. I'm tired of the childish comments. It's a waste of my time and it's extremely immature.

      I appreciate the traffic you have brought to the site, but perhaps you should look for somewhere else to post instead of your nonsense.

      Grow up.

      Delete
    6. Agree. Let's talk football ... or basketball!
      #noinsults
      #outsmarted
      #jeDub

      Delete