Cade McNamara > Joe Milton. Redshirt sophomore Cade McNamara had a game that Joe Milton could only dream of, and that included completing 9/11 passes for 136 yards, 2 touchdowns, and 0 interceptions. It doesn't matter if you can throw a ball 80 yards if you don't know where the ball is going. McNamara has the ability to recognize matchups and read defenses, and those skills trump Howitzers for arms. His best two passes of the day were beautiful deep balls to . . .
Ronnie Bell. Bell made a great one-handed catch on the sideline (nullified by a very questionable offensive pass interference call) and a great 76-yard catch-and-run touchdown. That at the end of an exciting 31-yard punt return, he seemed to slump to the ground when getting tackled and was swarmed by medical personnel. When he left the field, he had to be carried and his right leg was just dangling. My fear is that he tore his ACL while making a cut at the end of the run. Bell is a captain, led the team in receiving the past two years, and was bound to lead the team in that category once again in 2021. After losing Aidan Hutchinson, Kwity Paye, and Jalen Mayfield to injury in 2020, it's frustrating that Michigan couldn't avoid a serious injury even one game into the season against a MAC opponent.
Hit the jump for more.
The running backs still rotate. Whaddaya know? Numerous people insisted that Jay Harbaugh was a bad running backs coach because he rotated backs, but after he moved to tight ends coach . . . the running backs were still rotating. New running backs coach Mike Hart somehow caught the bug and gave 11 carries to Hassan Haskins and 14 to Blake Corum, and that relatively equal distribution appeared even before garbage time opened the door for backups to play. Corum exploded for 111 yards (7.9 yards/carry) while Haskins had a steady 70 yards (5.4 yards/carry). The offensive line was unable to create many holes early in the game, but as the contest wore on, those undersized Western Michigan linemen started to get tired from being leaned on. Corum made some great cuts and showed a burst, while Haskins stuck to his tradition of bouncing off and leaping over potential tacklers. Freshman Donovan Edwards (6 carries, 27 yards) also got his first shot at playing time.
A.J. Henning = Giles Jackson. I appreciate Giles Jackson's talent as a returner and gadget player, but I really wasn't that broken up about it when he transferred to Washington. Why? Michigan has a reasonable facsimile of Jackson in the form of A.J. Henning, who had a 74-yard touchdown on an end around and caught 1 pass for 11 yards. I do think Michigan has to find a way of getting those types of players the ball regularly in the offense rather than just a couple times or on short passes over the middle. Other teams are able to take advantage of speedy slot guys on bubbles, slot fades, and slant RPO's, and I have yet to see Michigan really do that with Jackson or Henning.
How about that defense? I'm not entirely sure what to think of the defense. Michigan showed a variety of fronts - which they did under Don Brown, too - but I think one of the big takeaways was the frequent usage of two down linemen and two standup ends/outside linebackers. That has been a staple of the Baltimore Ravens' defense, and it seems to have made its way to Ann Arbor. Michigan's defensive line did start to impose its will later in the game, but the interior line needs to be better. I was not impressed by what I saw from Mazi Smith, and I'm also concerned that Kris Jenkins was deemed to be capable of playing so much. Jenkins looks like he needs to add another 15 pounds before being game-ready, and that's not going to happen during the season.
Aidan Hutchinson is a beast. Hutchinson is going to face better tackles than he did on this day, but he was essentially unblockable one-on-one. He made 4 tackles, 1 sack, 1 forced fumble, and 1 quarterback hurry, but his impact was larger than that. He forced Western Michigan quarterback Kaleb Eleby to speed up his internal clock, and Eleby wasn't the same crisp performer by the end of the game that he was early on.
Welcome to Michigan! Michigan got a huge play from J.J. McCarthy, who looked comfortable (except for one major hiccup) and made an exciting play you almost never see. Sprinting to his right to evade the pass rush, he planted his foot near the right sideline and threw the ball across the field to the opposite numbers, over the head of a Western Michigan defensive back, into the waiting hands of transfer wide receiver Daylen Baldwin, who took it the rest of the way for a 69-yard touchdown. Baldwin did not get much run, but he made his time count. And McCarthy showed us a glimpse of the future.
Beating up on WMU is what Michigan should do. If Michigan struggles with a MAC team, that would be a huge concern. A 47-14 victory doesn't ensure greatness in 2021, but we've seen worse - like the 2008 loss to Toledo or the 28-24 near loss to Akron in 2013 that hinted at the 3-9 and 7-6 final records, respectively. There have been times where Michigan couldn't consistently dial up big plays against smaller, slower, less talented teams, and the Wolverines found numerous guys - Ronnie Bell, Blake Corum, Daylen Baldwin, A.J. Henning, Roman Wilson, etc. - who could do that today.
Three best players today:
ReplyDelete1) Hutch - absolute beast
2) Bell - three fantastic plays in a row, and that created excitement & fire in everyone else
3) Dax - not quite Jabrill against Colorado, but he was flying around
RBs looked great! I dont agree with rotation being the same. Rotating two hot players is a lot different than four cold guys
Tacking was as good as I've seen in the first two weeks (minus UGa)
The bad:
our DTs are not good, at all. Belly danced with meh MAC OL, and gashed quite a bit
we have to use our Receivers more. Outside of Bell, only Johnson & Henning had catches for positive yards (before garbage time). I get we wanted to establish the run, but IOWA passed almost 3x as much as Cade
Corners didn't impress in coverage. I expect them to be exploited, though we're not facing any great WRs til The Game
Anyway, it went better than most expected, so let's go beat the Huskies next!
"3) Dax - not quite Jabrill against Colorado, but he was flying around"
DeleteThis was the first game under a new system. The defense will come together much more than this. Daxton Hill might be looking like the best safety in college in a few weeks. And the defense could become dominant.
Dominant? Over 300 yards and 17 first downs to WMU portends dominance? lolololol
Delete*Cade's release is still too low for my liking. Expect more batted balls
ReplyDeleteParkinggod got a highlight vid up pretty quick, I'm hoping he does the All Snaps Offense and Defense thing he has done in the past, as there was some interesting stuff going on, on both lines of scrimmage. Stuff, I need to stare at in order to catch even the faintest clue.
ReplyDeleteA couple small observations. On the opening kickoff, Blake Corum just reached out and plucked that ball out of the air. That ain't an easy thing to do. Actually, it's a really hard thing to do.
Speaking of hands, Ronnie Bell ... "Whoa Nelly!!!" as the great Keith Jackson used to say. But, if that was pass interference, so was his touchdown catch, as he does the exact same thing with his right hand that he did with his left on the one hand catch.
I don't know if he was ever coached up to do this, or if it's just something that he does, but I've seen him do it before. He will frequently put his inside hand into a defenders pads or hands and if not hold him off, he'll cover the guy's hands in a fashion that forces the guy to push through Bell's hand in order to get his own hands up. Slow down the TD catch and watch him do it. Different Ref was on the backpedal, looking into the play.
And, I'm pretty sure I heard the POP come thru my TV on Hutchinson's sack.
Problem with Bell's penalty was he made contact and extended, then locked out the arm. That's a push off, and is going to be called most of the time. Too bad, because that catch was HUGE
DeleteYeah, it was a stiff arm. If it was just a push it probably wouldn't have been a penalty.
DeleteFor Roanman:
ReplyDeletehttps://youtu.be/ntfSqUSLw2o
So McNamara > Milton > McCaffrey > Peters > Malzone
ReplyDeleteand probably, at some point, McCarthy > McNamara
So...
Harbaugh's QB recruiting just keeps getting better and better.
All Hail the King!
McNamara > McCaffrey > Peters > Malzone > Milton
DeleteThere. Fixed that.
LOL. OK bud.
DeleteI suppose this is another place where DarJ knows better than a Harbaugh. and Heupel too.
DeleteI'd say
DeleteShea > Rudock > Speight > McNamara (so far) > McCaffrey > Peters > Milton ... Malzone, lol
So, not exactly improvement, but continued "meh"
Milton had as many turnovers as touchdowns yesterday. So yeah, he should be ranked low until his play earns a move up.
DeleteBowling Green is 12-41 since 2016. So can't tell much from playing them. Will need a larger sample set to see where Joe Milton is at.
Delete@JE
DeleteI'm listing the HS recruits Harbaugh brought in, excluding Villari because of the JD Johnson situation and Gentry because his position change was expected by most.
Peters transferred when he fell behind McCaffrey. So McCaffrey > Peters. I appreciate that Illinois is a better program than No Colorado, but there a Dad factor to mitigate that. I also appreciate that Peters has had a more productive career in total, but he's a year older and didn't lose a full season to COVID. McCaffrey may continue to flounder but for now the Michigan competition trumps all other indirect comparisons afterwards.
Likewise, McCaffrey transferred when he fell behind Milton. So Milton > McCaffrey. Milton transferred to an SEC school where despite not competing in the spring he immediately beat out a top 100 recruit and Va Tech's former starter. As he did at Michigan, he passed guys you assumed were better than him. Maybe it's OK to just admit that you have a bias against Milton and it's clouding your judgement? The facts are the facts.
McCaffrey is a 5th year senior, just started his first career game, and didn't look very good doing it. 107 QBR, 1 TD, 1 INT. Milton wasn't great either but he didn't turn the ball over and was a bit better statistically. Lots of football left but things don't look any different in 2021 than in 2020 when Milton sent McCaffrey packing. McCaffrey can run sure, but his throwing ability remains speculative at best for a 5th year guy.
It's funny that the negativity to Milton compared to McCaffrey and Peters just keeps going. All of these kids graduated from Michigan and lost their jobs after getting passed over and transferred elsewhere. None have done anything impressive elsewhere but Milton went to the best school, beat out the toughest competition, and is the youngest. There's no objective evidence that he is a lesser QB than the guys he beat out. Not yet at least. Opinions are opinions.
It could end up that way, just like it could end up that Milton is better than McNamara. But right now we know how it turned out when these guys were at Michigan, and nothing afterwards has flipped the narrative to indicate that Harbaugh made the wrong choice. So until proven otherwise:
McNamara > Milton > McCaffrey > Peters > Malzone
@DARJ
DeleteI think you meant to say McCaffrey. Milton had 1 TD and 0 TOs. McCaffrey had 1 TD and 1 INT.
And it's funny that you bring up sample size for Milton. He's played more games against tough opponents than anybody on this list, despite being the 2nd youngest (McNamara has him by a few weeks).
I'm not saying Peters is any good. In fact, I've never said that. I've actually argued the opposite elsewhere
DeleteWe don't know what happened with McCaffrey. There's stories the time spent in CO during pandemic rubbed JH the wrong way, then an injury in practice resulted in the doghouse, similar to what we've heard with Solomon, StJuste and Pipkens
Anyway, not just statistically, but in actual performance Mac has been better. He chose his dad's school, just as his brother gave up on the NFL to join that staff. With an FCS roster, he did much better against a P5 team than Milton did with an SEC roster, facing one of the worst G5 programs in the nation. And it wasn't just stats. Milton had up to 9sec in the pocket, stood flat footed, and ate sacks - one of which turned the ball over. Milton won the job, but Hooker had a bad camp, and Bailey isn't a fit for the offense. Milton looked great (reportedly) in practice, but he did here too (reportedly). Might have something to do with the QB practice jersey keeping live pressure off, but when the real games start, we get the same performance & stats he's had since HS
Call it bias, or a realistic observation
@JE
DeleteI understand there is no certainty here. We can rationalize hypothesize and theorize but there are some basic facts to contend with.
Milton won the starting job at Michigan, lost it while injured, then transferred. People in the program are quoted as saying he was not put in a position to succeed. He transferred to a better conference and won the job at Tennessee. These are both historical power programs that recruit elite talent consistently. He has won 2 starting jobs as a 4th year senior.
McCaffrey started ZERO games at Michigan and transferred to Northern Colorado to play for his dad. He is now a 5th year senior.
JE, buddy, pal, I'm begging you to be reasonable. I thought McCaffrey was going to be good. I thought his legs were a real asset. I was really excited to see what the offense looked like with him. I believe arm strength is overrated. But he just... he didn't have it. If he was a good QB as a junior he would have unseated Patterson when he was struggling. If he was a good QB as a senior he would have beaten out Milton clearly and his teammates would have supported him through any kerfuffles with Harbaugh. If he was a good QB he would have transferred to a better program. If he was a good QB he would be somewhere other than struggling through his first start at Northern Colorado for his dad, sharing a backfield with Tru Wilson.
We both thought McCaffrey was better than this. But here we are. We were wrong.
You can think Milton is good, bad, or somewhere in between but there's no question he has accomplished more as a college QB, already than McCaffrey.
I think it's reasonable to conclude McCaffrey wasnt as good as we hoped. He did replace a struggling Patterson at Madison in 2019, but was destroyed immediately after
DeleteBut McCaffrey can disappoint, and Joe Milton can still be one of the worst QBs I've ever seen. He may have gotten injured last year, but that's not why he lost the job. He lost it because he has no feel for the pocket, poor vision, doubts himself between the hashes, and lacks touch on his passes, leading to sub 50% completion even when healthy
I watched the Tenn game over the ohio game because I really wanted him to do well. It was a travesty, despite playing one of the worst teams in the G5 ... some people just don't have it
What I'm saying is that there is a consistent pattern at Michigan of a recruit getting displaced by the next recruit and transferring, because he is not as good.
DeleteWhat you are saying is that that is not the case. In fact, some of the guys transferring out are better than the guys they lost jobs to, based on your own opinion.
The bias is showing in how you are harping on Milton's negatives and making excuses for McCaffrey. I could do the same thing with Milton - I've made the arguments before. The excuses are there. And my reservations about Cade remain in tact too - the coaches are scared to let him throw. I am still not entirely convinced that McNamara is a better QB than Milton in my heart. Yet look above. At this point McNamara > Milton is just reality in this here world. The guy starting at Michigan is probably a better QB than the guy who lost his job to him and transferred. He's younger, he took his job, and he had a better day to start the season in 2021. That goes for McNamara over Milton, Milton over McCaffrey, McCaffrey over Peters. If Malzone was still in college it would probably go for him too.
McCaffrey will, I hope, have better days against easier competition. Milton has had them against easier competition too. Milton will also probably get eviscerated against Alabama and Georgia. We'll never get apples to apples for these two QBs again... The closest we got was when they were at Michigan. McCaffrey had every advantage in the world (son of NFL player, brother to NFL players, well-off, well-camped, great athlete) yet he got passed by a guy most considered to be a long-rage project despite being older and more highly ranked. All Milton had was a stronger arm and a stronger will.
"one of the worst QBs I've ever seen"
DeleteThat kind of says it all. A guy who won the starting job at Michigan and Tennessee is one of the worst QBs you've ever seen.
So why do you think he beat out Mac and McCaffrey to start 2020 and why did he beat out a 4-star and a proven starter to start 2021? He just got real lucky to be at the right time and right place? Or are Harbaugh and Heupel bad at QB evaluations?
I believe you said Milton should transfer to D3 and predicted that he would sit the bench at Tennessee. This is after you speculated he could/would transfer from Michigan if Patterson stayed healthy in 2019. That he lacked patience and would sit behind McCaffrey.
He keeps exceeding your expectations and evaluations but you keep sticking to your guns. I call that bias, not a "realistic observation". I think you are seeing what you want to see, in spite of facts.
At least Milton doesn't have his Dad claiming he is "cursed".
Deletehttps://247sports.com/Article/Dylan-McCaffrey-first-start-Northern-Colorado-Michigan-Wolverines-170186424/
Dylan was more honest with his assessment.
"I thought my throws were all over the place. Felt like we had some good concepts dialed up that I kinda botched with my eyes.”
What was that about vision? accuracy? trust?
I still have no idea if Joe Milton can be an above average starting QB in college football. Sometimes he looks like it but more often he looks to be an inaccurate gunslinger who can't read the field. But I am pretty damn confident that McCaffrey, Peters, and Malzone are not. There is no hope left for them. There was never any "sometimes" with them, beyond some "for a young guy qualifiers". McCaffrey is the youngest of them and he's closer to 25 than 19. There's not some untapped reservoir of raw talent that just needs to get polished up.
DeleteThe part I continue to argue with is the disparity in framing. Michigan fans have a lot of negative things to say about Joe Milton and very few negative things to say about McCaffrey, Peters, or Malzone. The guys we were/are left with maybe have/had some warts but we never said "at least he doesn't suck as bad as THAT guy! He was one of the worst QBs I've ever seen in my life!". That's Milton-specific, I think. Though O'Korn and Morris both got their share of negativity too, they were also statistically much worse players.
"there is a consistent pattern at Michigan of a recruit getting displaced by the next recruit and transferring, because he is not as good"
DeleteOr, because he is not good - full stop. And neither has the next guy (both can be true)
I'm not excusing Mac, in fact I said above he wasn't good
I said Milton should go FCS, and still believe so. He's terribly raw, and needs tons of reps and success. The physical talent is there, so the NFL would find him
You say Milton has had good days, but when? His play on Thursday was his play last year, in spot duty the two previous years, and in HS ...
You say you want reasonable, but, but then make stuff up. Ed Mac didn't say his son is cursed as a player, but that the family is cursed with regard to injury
Before I close, I'll say again: I don't think Mac was good enough to be our QB. Nor was Milton. Why does one bother, but not the other? Don't you see your own bias?
We can go numbers, which you like:
11 of 23 (47%), 140yds, 1TD, 1 Fumble, 3 sacks ... Lowest QBR in conference
24 of 42 (57%), 236yds, 1TD, 1INT, 3 sacks
One played with SEC talent, behind a good OL with solid protection, against a garbage G5 team
The other played with FCS guys, against a P5 team
But that's stats. Mac wasn't great WATCH:
Mac wasn't good, but played plays like a college QB: https://youtu.be/KxlQlspEiGA
Milton looks like a 3d Grader at recess, flatfooted, with all day to redirect receivers deep, and still miss, or get strip sacked https://youtu.be/Uw5Hx1TSyDA
I do wish him well, I'm telling you it's even worse than last year
Comparing McCaffrey's play for FCS Northern Colorado vs. FBS Colorado...
Delete...to Milton's play for SEC Tennessee vs. MAC BGSU...
...is something. And not in a good way. We've seen a fair number of FCS players jump to the NFL or jump into FBS and be successful, but as a whole, you know Northern Colorado was playing out of its league - literally.
@Thunder. Right, the apples to apples competition was at Michigan where McCaffrey lost out. I'm pointing out that McCaffrey didn't do anything to overturn that outcome in Week 1.
DeleteIt's also a decision, not an accident that McCaffrey transferred to the FCS while Milton transferred to the SEC.
I would EXPECT that McCaffrey ends up with far better stats by seasons end. Per your logic. I would ask if the same qualifier about competition will be noted when it happens? I doubt it. I don't think we'll hear "well what do you expect him to do against Georgia's defense" like we hear against...checks notes...the powerhouse Colorado program.
I doubt it. You know why I doubt it? Statements like "Milton could only dream of playing like that".
Joe Milton G1 2020 vs Big 10 team 15/22 170 QBR 280 yards 2 TDs 0 TOs.
Cade McNamara G1 2021 vs a MAC team 9/11 90 QBR 140 yards 2 TDs 0 TOs.
I don't have any skin in the game, I believed in McCaffrey not Milton nor McNamara. But I noticed that Milton was criticized almost immediately after he got here, from his play to his character. And now there seems to be an enthusiasm to call him out repeatedly after he left.
I've defended Milton, not because I think he's a great QB, because I think he was treated like crap.
@ LANK 1:22 p.m.
DeleteI don't think I will be touting McCaffrey's (possibly good) numbers over Milton's (possibly bad) numbers vs. FCS teams and the SEC, respectively. An exception may come if McCaffrey explodes for a GREAT season and Milton has a TERRIBLE season, gets benched, etc. It is absolutely, entirely possible that a good FCS quarterback is better than a bad FBS quarterback.
There is no universe in which Joe Milton completes 100% of the passes that travel beyond the extended hands of the defensive linemen. McNamara was 9/9 on passes that weren't knocked down by Ralph Holley. The deep completions to Ronnie Bell would have been incompletions coming out of the hand of Milton.
So yeah, Milton can only dream of completing passes like that. How do I know?
His highest completion completion percentage was 68% against Minnesota, and it went down every game after that. Then against a terrible team in BGSU, it was 47.8%. It's not going to get appreciably better than that. He's just not an accurate passer, period.
Barring a miraculous Josh Allen-type turnaround, we've seen who Milton is and will be.
@JE.
DeleteDid you call either McCaffrey or Peters "one of the worst QBs I've ever seen"? Or did you think they deserved a shot to succeed elsewhere?
Do you imply either one would transfer after their freshman year because of impatience? Or was that just Milton? Did you stay mum on the topic when assuming McCaffrey and MacNamara would wait?
Did you deny it when McCaffrey and Peters passed older players on the depth chart? I don't remember it if you did.
You didn't react to these guys the same way. You (and others) are saying Milton is the worst of them all. That's what I'm reacting to.
My original post notes a pattern that indicates that these guys are the same. Each recruit beating out his predecessor and then getting beaten out and then grad transfering out.
"Don't you see your own bias?" I do not. I have no reason to be biased for Milton. He is just the next guy down the line in the pattern of Harbaugh QB recruits. I admit I don't like how McCaffrey left but in 2020 I can't really fault anyone for doing what they think is best.
I hope that the pattern (TM) could be a good thing for Harbaugh and Michigan. But that's not the point right now because this has turned into another episode of Milton-hate.
Calling Milton the worst of all of them is overt bias. That's evident by what he did at Michigan and where he ended up. Take the names out and just tell the story of who started games and where and when and any objective assessment would say Milton is the best of the departed QBs listed above.
But we've got OPINIONS TO THE CONTRARY! and they are coming in hot.
Finally, Milton was better than McCaffrey statistically in W1. He SHOULD have been given the context, yes but he had a higher passer rating, more YPA, more rushing yards, and more TDs in far fewer attempts. McCaffrey threw more passes (42), got more yards and didn't fumble, but he also threw an INT admitted to struggling all game.
@Thunder
DeleteI don't really disagree with any of that but it's continued cherry-picking to make the most negative view possible of Milton.
Brandon Peters has completed 54% of his passes for his career. I've never heard you talk about his inaccuracy issues a single time. Not at Michigan and not since. Milton is at 55% despite much tougher competition.
I also do not remember seeing any Milton > Peters proclamations after Minnesota game last year.
While I'm sure we both agree there's more to being a good QB than completion percentage you bring it up an awful lot. As I've noted before it's very strange that you have such a strong emphasis on highlights and playmaking for RBs but for QBs it's all about risk avoidance and reliability.
I would be very surprised if Milton isn't benched at some point. Tenn is going to struggle at times given the competition and they have talented guys on the bench that at the very least offer a different look (i.e., running ability) and give them a spark.
Delete@Lank 1:22:
DeleteThere is no apples to apples comparison here; two different teams at different levels; one playing down, the other playing up; one at home, the other on the road ... the only true apples to apples was last year, with Cade out performing Joe at Wisconsin, at rutgers, and against PennSt. But you didn't like that either
If you truly believe your point is valid, why lie? Yesterday it was what Mac's dad said; today it's Milton's stats. His QBR, was not 170, but 31 ... 94th in the country and last in the SEC
@Lank 1:55
I was very harsh on Peters. He looks the part, throws a pretty ball, and can get it anywhere on the field. But BP grew up playing unathletic farm boys, and P5 football was just too much, too fast for him. I've also called on him to be replaced each season at Champagne, because his backup regularly moved the offense more efficiently than he does. I wish him well, but ea time out I see further confirmation he's in over his head ... It's my opinion Joe Milton is the worst QB I've ever seen; you're allowed to assume I've seen worse, but is it worth getting upset about? Did you watch the Vols 'every snap' video? Below, you mention Boggs & Gwynn, and I agree: every QB is going to make mistakes, including turnovers. All are bad, but the spectrum goes from bad to 'WTF are you doing???' Milton is the latter, with INTs thrown right at a defender's chest each of his three years in college, and G1 of his senior year taking a strip sack while standing like a statue in a perfectly clean pocket, almost as if he forgot about the pass rush, or thought he was 'alltime QB' during recess ...
@Lank 2:11
What 'tough competition' did Milton face? He was 1-3 as a starter, winning only against 3-4 Minnesota, and getting benched against Wisconsin & Rutgers. Do you honestly believe his stats would have improved had the season went on???
This is silly. Peters wasn't good, at all. Mac passed him on the depth chart, while they were both on campus, but he wasn't very good either. Milton has all the physical tools to be like a Josh Allen, but to date has looked worse than any QB I have seen. Even in his 'best game,' he had three passes beyond the 1st down marker; everything else was just a couple yards beyond the LoS, or behind; almost always to the sidelines, because the middle of the field is too much to process, and he's not accurate enough deep. He can run, but runs timid. Please Lord, I hope he can turn it around, but that's not a realistic prayer
*if you truly believe I am so wrong, bias or unfair, why bother?
@ LANK 2:10 p.m.
DeleteLet me just start off by pointing out that "Here's a list of things I don't remember you ever saying" is a weird criticism. First, there are a ton of available words and phrases that I have never uttered or did not think of at one particular time. Second, your lack of memory of my saying something doesn't mean it never occurred. I've written hundreds of thousands of words on this blog, and I don't even remember every one. I'm sure you don't, either.
That overarching comment aside...
When Brandon Peters played at Michigan, he was a third-stringer getting third-stringer's reps. When he entered games and then briefly started in 2017, he was a redshirt freshman who didn't get starter's reps until halfway into his second season. In his third game, against a dominant Wisconsin defense, he got knocked out (literally) and at that point, he had 4 touchdowns and 0 interceptions (ending up with 4 and 2 after the bowl game). To be clear, he had taken a snap in just one college football game (Purdue 2017) before being thrust into the starter's role.
How is that experience comparable to a redshirt sophomore Joe Milton getting starter's reps going into the season and throwing 4 TD/4 INT, despite playing in 7 games the previous two seasons?
So yeah, I don't harbor many frustrations about Peters's inaccuracy at Michigan, because he was not only a backup, but he was inexperienced.
Furthermore, you didn't see any Milton > Peters proclamations, because Milton didn't take over the starting role from Peters. I'm not sure if you remember this, but Brandon Peters's last start was in 2017, Shea Patterson started in 2018 and 2019, and by the time Milton started, Peters was in his second year at Illinois.
Other things you probably didn't hear me say:
Rudock > Bellomy
Speight > Cone
If a dude has been gone for two years, why would I connect them? If you can't see that comparing the 2021 starter to the 2020 starter is a natural thing to do, then I don't know what to tell you.
This is all subjective but I see more differences in the reaction than what actually happened.
DeleteBoth guys:
started early in their careers.
had solid debuts against bad teams which proved a mirage.
quickly fell off against tougher opponents.
were knocked back by injuries.
got passed during their junior year by younger players.
graduated and transferred to became starters elsewhere.
weren't missed by Michigan fans.
It's true Milton started as a Junior and Peters started as a sophomore, but if anything Peters was the one that the fanbase had the highest hopes for at one time. It's also true that Patterson bumped everyone down the depth chart in 2018 and 2019 so the fight had less spotlight on it. But he was expected to be a starter at one time (and considered an improvement over Speight by many at the close of 2017), so he was arguably the bigger disappointment.
I guess maybe you can argue it played out over a longer period of time with Peters but either way they both finished their junior years displaced and replaced.
@JE.
DeleteI'm not going to take you seriously when you call me a liar.
Why bother indeed.
I can see why Bell was called. It wasn't a push before the catch. It was a stiff arm. If he had just pushed of, like can be seen more and more by WRs, it probably wouldn't have been called.
ReplyDeleteMy complaint with Jay Harbaugh, was never that he rotated RBs. It was that he underused really fantastic players, and that I don't even think he knew what he had in them. How many fantastic runs are we going to see from Zach Charbonnet before people realize how badly Jay Harbaugh used him? Rrom watching Chabonnet the last two weeks, who if he keeps going like this will be a Heisman candidate, I think that idea he was misused by Jay Harbaugh has been blazed across the sky.
Why is Charbonnet a backup at UCLA?
DeleteWho did Harbaugh overuse if he underused Charbonnet?
Are you just trying to be a contrarian today?
DeleteI'm responding to overtly outlandish statements from a guy who told me he "fixed that" to something I wrote.
DeleteI think the contrarian is the guy who thinks he knows more than very well paid football coaches as opposed to the guy who says "the guy who won the job is better than the guy who lost it and transferred".
Well, I hope you have a better afternoon. You might be a bit thin skinned.
DeleteYou can call me whatever you like. I'll just note you didn't answer the question.
DeleteThat was an enjoyable watch.
ReplyDeleteO: Haskins and Corum were as good as advertised. McCarthy flashed that talent. The QB and OL mostly did what they should against an inferior opponent. Bell stood out and will be missed. Henning dropped a ball he shouldn't have. All did not. Notable that the talk about focusing on the run and being limited with ambitions in the pass game held true. Not as bad as the overt fear they had with Peters in 2017 but some of the same vibes. Edwards and Baldwin looked pretty unexceptional in their first game.
D: They didn't look incompetent, that's a start. Vince Gray had a day! CB1? Hutchinson looked WAY better than anyone else on the field. Does that mean he's great or everyone else is mediocre? All that talk about a new defense and all my amateur eyes could see was DEs were now standing up. Setting aside some semantics it was 4 DL types, 2 LB types, and 5 DB types, like always. Use of Dax was encouraging. DTs still meh as expected but Morris and Ojabo looked feisty. Ross getting cooked by slot WR - probably not for the last time.
Coaching: No QB runs until Villari time is somewhat concerning. Gattis calling for a short slant on 3rd and long after the dumb PI call on Bell was the second worst thing I saw all game. That was the primary read too. WYD Michigan?
Outlook: elevated. Michigan didn't look like an obvious disaster and the opponents didn't have great days. UW had their version of Toledo/App State. Woof. Wake up punch of knock out blow for the Huskies? Indiana and Wisconsin look a lot less scary. Of course the teams that played real competition are always going to have a harder time, but eyes out for some wobble. OTOH MSU and Maryland had good days.
@1:50PM and again @5:09PM you get on him for "knowing more than the coaches," but at 1:44PM you question the highly paid Gattis...
DeleteLet's try for more civility this season, hmmm? Much easier to enjoy the team, including all ups & downs
I'm being civil. See response below.
DeleteIs there a conflict in questioning the coaches on one thing and defending them on other? No. You've trotted this out repeatedly and it's the king of your black or white takes. "So no one can ever say anything bad about a coach?!?. Nope. No one said that. It's not all or nothing.
Questioning a playcall (made in a matter of seconds in the moment) is a lot different than saying you know better on a playing time decision (made over months of practices when the coaches are there everyday with these kids). There's small and big stuff we can question but consistently assuming they're playing the wrong guys is extremely arrogant.
Its also arrogant for me to ask what Gattis is doing on one particular play but that's a very mild question. And, if someone has a great answer for why Gattis called a short pass on 3rd and long I'm all ears. Maybe he didn't. I'm willing to listen. And if he starts converting a bunch of short slants on 3rd and long I'll gladly say I was wrong to ask the question.
On the depth chart decisions, I'm giving you a reason why Charbonnet wasn't getting more snaps and why these QBs are playing at Illinois, Northern Colorado, and Not that Miami instead of Michigan. It's the most obvious answer, the easiest explanation, the least controversial, and it's backed up by outcomes at other places. They are not as good. Anything else is a hot take.
But you questioned Drevno worse than anything I've see on this thread ...
DeleteOh well, I'm out on this one. Have a great holiday
Define worse. I don't remember criticizing Drevno's decisions on personnel.
Delete@ LANK 6:45 p.m.
DeleteWhat you're not recognizing is that play calls are not split-second decisions. Play calls, schemes, etc. are ALSO determined over months - or even years - of coaching. If a team does X, we're going to run Y. If a team runs L, we're going to run M.
Questioning a play call and questioning a personnel decision are the same thing. They're insinuating that the questioner can better synthesize available information than the questionee. I have no problem with either.
I hate to take it in this direction, but I think it's relevant:
It's similar to everyone questioning police behavior/tactics in recent years/months. Yes, police officers are making split-second decisions, but those decisions are also based off of months and years of training. If split-second decisions CAN'T be questioned, then why should a police officer ever be accountable for what happens in those moments? And if split-second decisions CAN be questioned, then why did the training not adequately prepare the officer to act properly?
Each of us is only an "expert" in one or two areas. (In my case, it's donuts and chili.) But we still question politicians, teachers, coaches, police officers, business owners, etc. It's okay for someone who's not an expert to question somebody who is.
I just said I agree it's OK to ask questions so I'm not sure why you're making this argument.
DeleteI think your argument is relevant if there is a PATTERN of repeated errors. In this case I was calling out one specific instance I don't think it's a big indictment. Even Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn swing and miss sometimes.
The PATTERN I see here is Michigan fans calling out the depth chart decisions and then almost never being proven right about it. There are exceptions but the Michigan coaches keep getting proven right that they played the right guy but people keep questioning it anyway.
@ LANK 2:27 p.m.
DeleteYou said it's okay to question play calls. You didn't say it was okay to question depth chart disagreements. My point is that they are the same thing in that they are both developed over time, not split-second decisions, which you insinuated in the case of play calling.
I would also argue that your openness to questioning play calling is very slippery.
For example, if I say Mike Cox should have played more than Vincent Smith, there's something coming down the line that should show whether I was right or wrong (getting drafted, production, depth chart, etc.). I'm not trying to rehash that argument, but we both have EVIDENCE that makes us think we're right.
In the case of play calling, you can always believe you're right because nothing coming down the road is going to show us definitively that no, indeed, Michigan should not have thrown the ball downfield on 3rd-and-15 from their own 20-yard line against Western Michigan's nickel package with their backup left guard in the game up 21 points in the third quarter. (I made up that scenario.)
In other words, there's very little danger in putting yourself out there for a bad play calling take, because no one will ever know if you're right or wrong. Essentially, you're always right because you're playing the game in the rear view mirror. But if you say "Play Backup QB X" and that guy comes in and totally sucks, then you've exposed yourself to criticism.
The coaches are going to be right most of the time. That's their job. Probably in any given year, nobody has much to say about 19 of the 22 positions on the field. The gray area comes in those other 3 or so, when guys are underperforming, getting beat, or just haven't proven themselves.
Last year was a particularly bad year for Michigan, and the only real depth chart arguments were about QB (Milton/McNamara), CB (Gray/literally anyone else), LG (Filiaga/Keegan), and RB (Haskins/Charbonnet/Corum/Evans). And the RB argument was really a matter of picking between several quality options, not just lambasting one particular guy in favor of another.
@Thunder
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree that we are talking about degrees, a continuum, and thus enter slippery slope territory. I've always seen it that way despite some people making it out to be that I have a "never criticize coaches" perspective.
There is a line somewhere and I just see repeated pattern of questioning playing time as beyond it. Not way beyond or untoward or anything like that, just misguided. i.e., What makes you think you know better than the coaches on this one? as opposed to How dare you question anything this highly paid coach says ever?
The coaches can be wrong but they are also there in practice everyday. When it comes to playing time, they don't just have 5x as much info they have 50x as much. People knocked Rich Rods decision and then Hoke mostly made the same ones (e.g., Vincent Smith). People knocked Hoke and then Harbaugh did the same (e.g., Joe Bolden).
It's just a topic that I see as arrogant to assume you know more. Is that true elsewhere? Sure. But it's subjective and there are degrees to it.
I think the gray area is far less than 3 out of 22. I'd say it's like 1 out of 44 because there's way more than just starters to look at. And as far as the coaches being wrong it remains to be seen if the fans won a single one of the 2020 narratives right. McNamara is the closest and they made that decision after seeing what we saw. Milton is gone as a result of it. Gray isn't - he's still starting. Filiaga started again. Haskins and Corum are here doing great it seems. etc.
I know we're going to do it again (put in McCarthy! give it to Blake! why isn't Baldwin in!) but I wish people would stop, pause, reflect to ask if they were proven right last time when they said PLAY X before or if it turns out the coaches did the right thing.
Let me just say that questioning coaches is something I do in my daily life. I'm going to toot my own horn here, but all off-season the staff I'm on told me that Player X was going to take the starting job at running back while I was pounding the table for Player Y. Fast forward to the beginning of the season, and Player Y is leading our area in rushing while Player X has barely played any offense. I got a begrudging "You were right" recently.
DeleteSome of those coaches have coached for much longer than I have, some have played at a higher level than I have, and yet...they were wrong.
So if a coach with 25 years of high school experience can be wrong about a running back evaluation, then it's entirely possible that a college coach can be wrong (about a player evaluation, a scheme implementation, a play call, etc.). Of course, I'm not infallible, either, and have made mistakes. But it's okay for me to question coaches, and it's okay for other coaches to question me. (It's also okay for parents/fans to question our coaching, as long as they do it appropriately without berating us verbally, yelling insulting things from the stands, etc.)
THIS ^^^
DeleteI honestly don't understand how feathers are ruffled over online disagreement. As far as "questioning the coach," it's as old as sports & fandom. I would imagine the vast majority of the time, the fan is absolutely wrong. But - even then - so? Keep it somewhat clean, and I'm sure not even the coach or the family gives a crap. Why should someone else on the web?
You keep saying 2 things "coaches are sometimes wrong" and "it's OK to question coaches".
DeleteI keep agreeing with both of those.
I guess all I can do is shrug. It reminds me a bit of the Joe Milton debate a couple years back where you kept telling me that a lot of QBs transfers. And I kept agreeing that was true too.
The point I'm making on questioning coaches is specific to playing time decisions. Namely, fan criticism is usually wrong when it comes to playing time decisions. The coaches are usually right. The fans are usually not. It's equally OK to do it as it is for me to call it out as arrogant and foolish.
The point on Milton: Calling out him specifically (and not the other QBs) as an imminent transfer candidate is unsavory. The fan equivalent of targeting.
I think it's interesting that you cite an example of yourself to illustrate the point. You are in the program. It doesn't matter if you are coach or an analyst or a trainer or whatever your role is, you are there inside the locker room, in the meetings, at practice. You see more than a fan in the stands or on TV sees. Someone THERE is better informed than someone NOT. This is foundational logic to my argument.
Which, again, is not that coaches are always right nor that they should never be questioned.
Okay, so you are equally arrogant and foolish when you question coaches. We can all just sit here and say, "You're a fool!" and "No, you're a fool!" and "No, you are!" We all criticize the coaches in some way, shape, or form.
DeleteTakeaway #1: You're a fool.
Takeaway #2: I'm a fool.
I'm not sure we've arrived anywhere.
LOL @ the Milton thing. When I gave Cade McNamara a TTB Rating of 65, I certainly wasn't expecting him to spend five years in Ann Arbor playing at the level of a 65.
I'm not name calling anyone but I agree with this: "I'm not sure we've arrived anywhere."
DeleteAll criticism is not equal.
DeleteCriticism 1: Jim Harbaugh is ugly.
Criticism 2: Jim Harbaugh should be fired for failing to beat Ohio State.
Criticism 3: Jim Harbaugh has failed to develop a high quality QB since he arrived at Michigan and at some point you have to ask if he has lost the ability to showed in his younger years.
1 is stupid and irrelevant. 2 is harsh but simple. 3. Is thoughtful and measured.
It's almost like you should write a "how to post ona message board" or "how to be a fan" book ... I mean, no one would read it, but still
DeleteI can only think of one person who would read it. And respond to police it.
Delete@JE
ReplyDeleteWhy should someone else on the web care what someone else on the web says?
Spiderman points meme.
I've never been upset over another's opinions. I actually think it's a bit funny when some get emotional over differing thoughts ... should be obvious by now
DeleteIn my experience IRL when people incorrectly accuse others of being emotional (usually a man towards a woman) it is based on their own projections and insecurities.
DeleteThat sounds like something an emotional basket case would say
DeleteThe guy who gets upset with name calling... NO YOU'RE MAD!
Delete