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If you read this site or are into Michigan recruiting, you probably know the names at the top of this in-state list. The ranking/order are according to the 247 Composite. I can tell you right now that I would rearrange this top five list, but until I complete my rundown of the top players in the state, I won't really put them in order.
1. Dante Moore - QB - Detroit (MI) King
Height: 6'2"
Weight: 195 lbs.
Notable offers: LSU, Michigan, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State
Commitment: Uncommitted
247 Composite: 5-star, #3 QB, #6 overall
Analysis: Moore is a national prospect at the quarterback position and has been a widely known name for several years. He has very good anticipation and touch, along with having adequate arm strength and athleticism. He's not a dynamic athlete with his feet, but he's a good athlete who can move in the pocket and has really refined his footwork. He appears to be one of the most college-ready quarterbacks to come out of Michigan in a long time. Wherever he goes, he will probably be in the conversation to start by year two at the latest. Moore grew up an Ohio State fan, gets private coaching from former Michigan quarterback Devin Gardner, and has good relationships with the coaches at Notre Dame. So his future destination is up in the air right now in a hotly contested battle.
Hit the jump for more.
2. Jalen Thompson - DE - Detroit (MI) Cass Tech
Height: 6'3"
Weight: 245 lbs.
Notable offers: Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame
Commitment: Uncommitted
247 Composite: 4-star, #26 DL, #180 overall
Analysis: Listed as a defensive lineman by 247 Sports - which often means defensive tackle - Thompson looks more like a strongside defensive end. I don't know if his body will fill out enough to kick inside to a 3-tech type of position. He has some explosiveness and quickness, though he's not truly a weakside speed rush type of player. I would like to see him work on his quickness off the snap, but he looks like he will be able to contribute quality play at a Power 5 program. Both crystal balls so far are for Michigan State.
3. Amir Herring - OG - West Bloomfield (MI) West Bloomfield
Height: 6'3"
Weight: 280 lbs.
Notable offers: Arkansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Penn State
Commitment: Uncommitted
247 Composite: 4-star, #9 IOL, #211 overall S
Analysis: Herring has been on the radar for a few years, but he seems to be one of those players with a limited ceiling. He can bend and move pretty well, but his height/length are somewhat limited and he tends to be a little more of a finesse player than a smash-mouth player. Because of that I think he may have to find the right program to fit his style of play. I have questions about his ability to anchor against the bull rush of bigger players. Right now all five crystal balls are in favor of Michigan, where his former head coach, Ron Bellamy, is the wide receivers coach.
Highlights: HERE
4. Cole Cabana - RB - Dexter (MI) Dexter
Height: 6'0"
Weight: 180 lbs.
Notable offers: Michigan, Michigan State, Pitt, West Virginia
Commitment: Michigan
247 Composite: 4-star, #14 RB, #245 overall
Analysis: I wrote up Cabana's commitment post here (LINK). He's a speed merchant who could contribute as a running back, slot, or returner.
5. Cole Dellinger - OG - Clarkston (MI) Clarkston
Height: 6'4"
Weight: 280 lbs.
Notable offers: LSU, Michigan, Michigan State, Ole Miss, Pitt
Commitment: Uncommitted
247 Composite: 4-star, #17 IOL, #277 overall
Analysis: Dellinger is the younger brother of Garrett Dellinger, an offensive tackle who signed with LSU in the 2021 class. Though Cole plays tackle for Clarkston, his height and length suggest he will probably end up inside at offensive guard. He also does not have great pass protection technique and tends to try to outmuscle people with his upper body. He does have some nastiness - more so than Herring (see above) - which I think can be channeled into being a pretty solid interior lineman. Though he wears a winged helmet, I see him being more of a Michigan State style of player. Right now, though, there are no crystal ball picks at all, so his recruitment is up in the air.
Highlights: HERE
We need Devin Gardner to be more like Wilcher was at Cass Tech: nudge the elite guys toward Ann Arbor
ReplyDeleteSo far the only thing I have read about Dante Moore is he's not going to Michigan. And, he's going with Notre Dame.
ReplyDeleteThat scenario is a possibility. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion, though. He's got the connection through Devin Gardner, and Jim Harbaugh and Sherrone Moore are both putting in work.
DeleteI'll say what I've said about other skill players, and that's that I believe Moore would be better served going elsewhere. Not Ohio State or Notre Dame, necessarily, but elsewhere. I haven't seen the development from quarterbacks at Michigan that I expected to see under Jim Harbaugh.
That being said, McCarthy is the best QB to join Michigan's program during the Harbaugh era. Other guys had some deficiencies, but McCarthy has the total package to be successful. It's not clear yet whether Harbaugh can actually mold that into something great.
To my eye, Harbaugh hasn't seemed to have a consistent vision in his first seven years. I think he was on a path in 2015 and 2016, but he got distracted, or lost his vision, or something, in 2017 and 2018. Gattis' tenure at first seemed a mismatch between initial claims of speed in space and the reality of what was played out on the field, and didn't really seem to settle in until 2021.
Delete2021 seemed to be the year that Harbaugh got his mojo back. He got serious about having a coherent coaching staff, and personally he lost weight and seemed more focused. Gattis' departure and Harbaugh's flirting with the NFL didn't help, but I guess there's hope that whatever focus Harbaugh had to start 2021 will be present for 2022 and beyond.
I meant that post to suggest why Harbaugh's QB development hasn't been what was expected. His first seven years have been inconsistent, sometimes incoherent, and the failure of QBs to develop in light of that is explained.
DeleteAgree that Harbaugh's QB development has not met the lofty expectations - but he's gotten substantially improved performances out of Rudock, Speight, Patterson and McNamara.
DeleteI don't really agree with the found-his-mojo explanation because things have been too up and down on offense all along. 2021 everything came together but before that the best offenses were 2016 and 2018 - both top 20 nationally. 2019 and 2015 were solid, especially considering transitions taking place. 2020 was chaotic but the big problems were on defense. 2017 was awful on O, largely because of QB injuries entirely out of Harbaugh's control. Everything is explainable for more tangible reasons.
So while we haven't seen the development of star QB like Kaepernick or Luck in the Harbaugh era, we have seen mostly very good offenses out of the program.
It's a surprise that none of the RECRUITS have turned into all-conference caliber QBs but we've backfilled with transfers who Harbaugh deserves credit for improving.
That IMO is the QB criticism that hits home for Harbaugh. He has made poor recruiting choices. Milton-McCarthy-Peters-Malzone represent 4 years of whiffs. Lesser coaches would have been fired for that kind of slump, and Harbaugh was on the hot seat, or at least a warm one. Fortunately McNamara and McCarthy seem to have turned things around and now we have a QB debate on our hands.
Thunder has argued the offensive philosophy negatively impacts WRs but I think it's a bigger deal for QBs. You used to be able to sell them on the NFL prep angle (conservative offenses and playing in bad weather) but the NFL has opened things up in recent years and doesn't work like that anymore. Now you have to sell the school, the tradition, and hopefully WINNING.
Good stuff. Seems like kind of a down year beyond Moore.
ReplyDeleteI think you have to like the development of both Cade McNamara and Jake Rudock. Rudock never even gets the proverbial cup of coffee in the league without Harbaugh. McNamara has been on a very nice trajectory since the day he got here. Hope it continues. Both were/are limited athletically and Harbaugh got a crap ton out of them.
ReplyDeleteMilton has demonstrated absolutely no aptitude for the position and would have been smart to embrace the TE position rather than bristle at the suggestion. Peters has demonstrated that he can't play. Whatshisname preferred golf and it showed up in his game.
I do think that you can fault Harbaugh for the job he's done across the board in evaluating QB prospects. People, perhaps naively, thought that we would be enjoying a string of Andrew Lucks, but those guys don't show up all that often. Every guy we've brought in has had at least one hole in his program, Milton being a damn Swiss cheese. This is particularly strange when you consider that a program praised for evaluating talent in general and head coached by a former QB has consistently brought in sub par talent at that position. Although, they have brought in guys with a mess of stars, which should also cause one to reflect on the accuracy of the rating services when it comes to evaluating the QB position along with Harbaugh’s.
I do think the injury to Wilton Speight, who was also limited physically but looked to be progressing nicely, cost us some wins and Harbaugh some credits.
Finally, nobody here will be surprised when I say that I love our offense. I dearly love linemen running around all over the place and hitting guys from every possible angle. Some years ago we had a guy hanging around here who couldn't figure out how to play multiple TEs. Then Harbaugh goes out and runs just the most innovative little pick play you've ever seen in your life with all his TEs on the field at the same time and gets Wheatley Jr. about the easiest touchdown catch you're ever gonna see.
I can't agree with Thunder's assessment regarding WR production being negatively impacted by our offense in terms of its approach and design. I think rather that their production has been tamped down by crap QBs that haven't been able to see wide open guys ... talking to you golf boy ... and other crap QBs with inaccurate arms ... most notably, both swiss cheese and McCaffery.
I think Orji is a linebacker. Would love to have to admit to being wrong on that one.
DeleteGood post roanman. The Amazon thing helped speight look bad, but there's no doubt he outperformed expectations prior to injury
DeleteOn Cade, we won a B1G title, but I thought we'd see more of the 4Q Wisconsin or 2d Half Rutger: quick release and spreading the ball around. Cade ended up holding on to the ball waaay too long, and that lasted all year. I don't see that changing; he is who he is
While I'd rather have a B1G champ QB than what we've had, I (greedily) want JJ to make the necessary strides. Seems like he has the skill to make the most out of Wilson deep, All crossing the field, or Edwards coming out of the backfield
Orji could end up at LB. Or at RB. But I can't see him being a QB at Michigan. Maybe he would be throwing a pass as an RB in a trick play.
DeleteI can, however, see him in the transfer portal some day. Jim Harbaugh likes how he runs with the ball. So I'm thinking he's going to be given a serious shot at RB.
I could see as LB that as a disrupter in the backfield.
Here's a list of Harbaugh's QBs and years in which his offense did not support a 1,000 yard receiver:
DeleteTodd Mortensen 2004
Josh Johnson 2006
Tavita Pritchard 2007
Andrew Luck 2008
Andrew Luck 2009
Andrew Luck 2010
Alex Smith 2011
Alex Smith 2012
Jake Rudock 2015
Wilton Speight 2016
Wilton Speight et al. 2017
Shea Patterson 2018
Shea Patterson 2019
Joe Milton/Cade McNamara 2020 (short season, so doesn't really count)
Cade McNamara 2021
Receivers to top 1,000 yards in a season include:
Adam Hannula in 2005, who hit exactly 1,000 yards with Josh Johnson at QB
Anquan Boldin in 2013-2014 with Colin Kaepernick at QB
Jim Harbaugh has been a head football coach since 2004, which gives us 18 seasons' worth of data, and he has a 1,000-yard receiver in three of those seasons.
I looked up the road, and Michigan State has five 1,000-yard receivers in the same span. And that's without the benefit of having 4 NFL-length seasons with 16 games to get 1,000 yards.
MSU is another school in the same climate that's generally run-heavy and not particularly up-tempo to inflate those types of stats.
So yeah, I think it's a Harbaugh thing.
To put it another way, there has been an average of 37.3 wide receivers to gain 1,000 yards in a season since Harbaugh arrived at Michigan in 2015 (excluding 2020 when the number dipped because of canceled games).
DeleteNot one of those receivers has played for Michigan.
@Roanman
DeleteI think you're way off base with Milton at TE. Other than having good size there's zero indication he has the skills to be good there. He's strong for a QB but not for TE. Unexceptional speed. No indication he can block. Hands? Route-running?
Meanwhile the one NFL-level trait he has - elite arm strength - makes no real difference at TE.
I mean, I get it because I said the same thing on Ty Isaac, but Milton has already started more games in fewer years than Isaac. Maybe travel back in time and it might have been a good idea maybe but would he be any better as TE than he is as a QB (a guy who has started at Tennessee and Michigan). Any guarantee NFL teams would be interested? As with Isaac I think the answer is - we don't know. But at least with Isaac we got to see him block and catch from RB and can make more informed speculation.
Anyway, back to the Harbaugh angle. Milton was a roll of the dice but the bigger disappointment is McCaffrey. Milton beat him out even though he was younger. We've seen Milton's warts exposed, but McCaffrey it seems was even worse.
Did Harbaugh really think Milton was the answer in 2020 or did he assume that competition between he and McCaffrey would yield a better starter? Or was the defense so bad that they had to put too much on a new QB? Regardless, it didn't work and 2020 goes down like 2017 as a team that couldn't put a good QB on the field.
I think the obvious counter argument to the number of guys who didn't hit the thousand yard mark is that Harbaugh keeps recruiting blue chip WRs anyway.
DeleteEven Amarion Walker, who was only ranked a 3 star, supposedly had offers from Alabama, Notre Dame and other elite programs. At a position where teams are glad to take 4 or 5 guys in a class sometimes, Michigan still gets lots of good players who talent/rankings are at similar levels to other positions, even RB or TE. It doesn't seem to be holding them back from getting drafted either.
So while maybe there's a case to be made about a lack of concentrated production under Harbaugh it seems like the hypothesis that it leads to lesser recruiting outcomes may not be supported by much evidence.
Wow!!! Look at you, putting the work in.
DeleteAnd I would prefer you not get after it, because I'm not gonna, but to your way of thinking, is this because he's spreading it around to multiple guys, or is it because he is running more running plays than passing plays. Which is sort of the same question if you think it through.
So ...
Maybe a better way to ask, out of total yards, more from running?
Or, out of total passing yards more guys with numbers?
Both?
@ Roanman 5:47 p.m.
DeleteWell, it's work I've put in before, so I pretty much had all that stuff memorized. The only real research I did was looking back at the USD stats/names. I did not have Todd Mortensen and Adam Hannula locked into the memory bank.
My theory - although I could dig deeper into this - is that Harbaugh offenses don't force-feed one guy. Like in past years when Michigan has found a #1 guy and just got him the ball in all kinds of ways (Braylon Edwards, Jeremy Gallon, etc.), Harbaugh just spreads the ball around. On the plus side, he makes teams guard everyone because there's no #1 guy you can double and just ruin Michigan's entire game.
@ Lank 3:22 p.m.
DeleteThe talk about Milton is kind of weird to me when you talk about him lacking strength, speed, hands, etc. If he were playing TE, he would be working on strength and speed. Regarding his hands, I've never seen a QB with bad hands. They typically play QB from a young age because they're the best athlete in their school (good hands included), they catch the ball over and over again when warming up/starting the next play, and on top of that...they catch shotgun snaps 100 times every practice!
I think literally my last concern about moving a QB to TE would be whether he can catch the ball or not. If a guy is playing QB, he has good enough hands to play TE.
I can't sit here and say he would have been a good TE. Blocking is always a question mark, for example. But he was 6'5", 242 lbs. at Michigan and reportedly ran a 4.6 forty. If you assume he would put on another 10-15 pounds while training for the TE position, let's just look at this:
Who wouldn't be interested in a 6'5", 255 lb. tight end with good hands who runs a 4.6 forty?
The star Combine TE was Chig Okonkwo, who was 6'2 1/2", 238 lbs. and ran a 4.52 forty.
The problem with Milton at a position as physical as TE, is the dude is averse to contact. Don't just watch him freak out in a winged helmet, and throw it at an unsuspecting defender, watch him at Tennessee ... there were head-scratching moments where big fella simply panics in his attempts to escape from potential contact
DeleteIn a Harbaugh offense, a TE has to block. Not happening with Mr Milton
@Thunder
DeleteI agree he would be working on different skills as a TE. But he's been working on things at QB without necessarily making great strides. It's highly speculative and uncertain to assume he would elsewhere.
Though he supposedly ran 40 time "in the range" of 4.65 while at UofM his ESPN page says it was 4.8. Start reshaping his body to perform at TE (i.e., to block) and that number is probably not going up. For an NFL TE, his speed is solid but unexceptional. He's not a burner, even for a guy his size.
Theoretically, nothing precludes Milton physically from being a good tight end -- but that's true at QB too. I think we would all agree that physical profile is important - but it's no guarantee.
The thing I'm most concerned about is not physical traits but the skills and technique needed to succeed at the position. It's certainly not impossible - Riemersma and Gentry are examples just at Michigan. But it's not remotely a guarantee - Denard Robinson wasn't nearly as good of a RB as he was a QB, because he didn't have the overall skillset needed at RB. Because he hadn't worked on it. Because he was playing QB. But obviously his speed translated to RB so that was a far more natural fit.
Disagree about the hands too - Devin Gardner had one of the worst catch rates of any WR in Michigan history...because he wasn't a WR. Now perhaps this was less about hands and more an issue of technique, instincts, timings, but the bottomline was that he wasn't making catches on the most of the balls thrown his way.
Bottomline is that a move to TE is a shot in the dark for a guy with no obviously exceptional traits. He's not that tall, he's not that fast, and he's totally inexperienced. At an elite college program is that even enough to start? Wouldn't he just be working his ass off to get to where he's already at as a QB?
The NFL wasn't interested in Devin Gardner as a WR even though he looked like he could be one. Would they be interested in Milton as a TE?
My argument is less "it's impossible" and more "is the best case scenario at TE any better?" Keeping in mind his golden goose - the one GREAT trait he has - is his arm strength.
I would argue he's a lot more likely to be an all american caliber QB than an all american caliber TE, and the same goes for NFL interest. Scouts aren't going to fly to Knoxville to watch his legs, but they will to see that arm. He's got two years left in college and the choice is toss your best asset in the trash and start from scratch or keep trying to develop to resolve the deficiencies you've demonstrated at QB.
In my mind it's not even close. But hey, I didn't think Sainristil should play DB! If his coaches move him to TE I'll change my tune and wish him luck.
The Gardner thing is a little bit disingenuous. He was a career QB playing WR for the first time and, IIRC, he led the team in receiving for the first few weeks. Furthermore, he ended up with 16 catches for 266 yards and 4 touchdowns in about half a season at WR. Play that out over a whole year, and that's not too shabby: 32 catches, 532 yards, and 8 touchdowns.
DeleteOn a side note, that 32 catches for 532 yards and 8 touchdowns is almost as good of a season as Michigan's leading receiver had in 2021, when Cornelius Johnson had 39 catches for 620 yards and 3 touchdowns. And Cornelius Johnson has been playing WR his entire life, including three years of college.
I don't think Roanman was saying Milton would have been an All-American TE right away in 2018. But if he was in his third or fourth year of playing tight end in 2021, he might be pretty good.
Arm strength is overrated. Just ask Shane Morris. Cade McNamara is about as noodle-armed as any starting QB at Michigan in the last 20-30 years, and his accuracy/decision-making led Michigan to a Big Ten championship. It's more of a necessity in the NFL when the throwing windows are so small, but you can be a stud in college without dynamic arm strength.
I agree that arm strength is overrated, particularly at the college level. It's also something the NFL looks at more because a certain baseline is necessary at that level. Far less so in college.
DeleteI guess the question is about goals and I'm assuming that we're considering here Milton's NFL prospects since, as a QB he has already earned a degree from Michigan and a starting QB job at Michigan. Obviously it's not all sunshine and roses after that opportunity, but presumably he's competing at Tennessee for more than the educational opportunities and college glory.
Milton is already "pretty good" in the sense that he has started games at Michigan and Tennessee. He is "pretty bad" relative to the hopes and expectations for that position in those programs. So what would be the different goal for Milton at TE? Maybe he could have been "pretty good" as a TE but it's not at all obvious to me that Milton made the wrong choice.
Gardner was not a good receiver. He played it for half a season. He got an opportunity but didn't impress. Why the opportunity? The competition was not exactly stiff. Beyond Gallon there was Dileo and Roundtree. Jerald Robinson earned playing time that year. A contributing factor to the offensive decline from 2012 to 2011 was that there was no one who could replace Hemingway and Odoms. The NFL got a season of tape on Gardner and there was no interest. The catch rate was horrendous. Hemingway got drafted in the same situation. While I'm not a big believer in Cornelius Johnson he's been a FAR better WR than Devin Gardner ever was. He's competing with NFL caliber WR. Gardner was competing with guys who probably had no business being WRs at a Michigan caliber program.
If Milton played enough to qualify in 2021, he would be below #100 nationally in passing efficiency. He was #81 in 2020.
DeleteHe is bad at playing QB. Full stop.
I don't really know why this Gardner thing is taking on a life of its own, but I'm going to rewrite your paragraph about Milton while inserting Gardner:
"Gardner is already 'pretty good' in the sense that he has started games at Michigan. He is 'pretty bad' relative to the hopes and expectations for that position in that program."
Now throw in the fact that Gardner spent half a season at WR and Milton has spent his whole life playing QB, and...well...I would gladly draft Gardner as a wide receiver before I ever drafted Milton to play QB.
BTW, Jehu Chesson and Amara Darboh were on that 2012 roster, both of whom got drafted. Sure, they were freshmen. But unless you're going to argue that a guy who's playing at Northern Colorado, a redshirt freshman from Reno, and a true freshman from Long Island were extremely stiff competition, I'm not sure that the argument holds much weight.
I'm bored of arguing this point about Milton. He beat out Cade McNamara to win a starting job at Michigan. He beat out Hendon Hooker to win a starting job at Tennessee. These are facts.
DeleteHe lost both jobs because he was inconsistent. But you can't be a bad QB and beat out good QBs at two blue blood college programs.
The context of who you are competing against are relevant for both Milton at QB and Gardner at WR. Michigan only needs 1 QB and Milton beat out McNamara after beating out McCaffrey and Peters. So Milton passed 3 guys who started in college, just at Michigan. Milton and McNamara are the same age BTW. McNamara aka "a guy from Reno" turns out to be pretty good and had far better coaching in HS. Milton beat him out anyway, had a couple impressive games, a couple 300 yard games and the wheels fell off. But he accomplished something just to get to where he got. Peter Principle or someone "not put in a position to succeed"? Not relevant to the this particular debate. Milton earned the job. "Extremely stiff" competition? No. But he faced pretty legitimate competition during his career at Michigan it's safe to say.
Contrast the situation with Gardner. Michigan needs a bunch of WRs and they didn't have them. Note that QB is typically 1 guy while WR needs 4 or 5 to function. Michigan needed bodies and putting Gardner there was a desperation move. Some freshman from Missouri and Iowa who didn't play, even AFTER Gardner moved back to QB, aren't relevant. Joe Reynolds, Jeremy Jackson, Jerald Robinson did - that's who Gardner was competing against. Moreover the 3 capable receivers they did have - Dileo, Roundtree, and Gallon were all under 6' and under 180 pounds. They needed a body - Gardner provided it. It doesn't mean he was a good WR. He wasn't. The offense struggled terribly against any decent competition while Gardner was playing WR.
So the context you want to twist things around to cover up is this:
Milton earned playing time over McNamara, McCaffrey, and Peters - college starters at various places.
Gardner earned playing time over Jeremy Jackson, Jerald Robinson, and Joe Reynolds.
Oh, okay, so the future NFLers don't count, but the guy playing at an FCS school does. The guy who played in 46 career games and started 4 doesn't count, but the guy playing at an FCS school does.
DeleteMilton isn't good. The stats show it. I can't help it if a couple coaches got bamboozled by the combination of arm strength, size, and decent speed...he's not good!
I'd be interested to know which other QB ranked below #100 in the country you would argue vociferously is a good QB. Zach Calzada of Texas A&M? Mike Wright of Vanderbilt? Noah Vedral of Rutgers? Ryan Hilinski of Northwestern?
Nah, you wouldn't argue that those guys are any good, but you're so entrenched in defending Milton that you can't see the forest for the trees.
By the way, I've got some bad news for you:
If your "He started some games; therefore he must be good" logic holds true, then Ty Isaac started some games over Chris Evans and Karan Higdon. And no, Michigan wasn't starting more than one RB at the time. Of course, Isaac lost the job to other guys, but that doesn't appear to matter.
Let me put this simply for you:
LANK'S LOGIC
Devin Gardner started at WR ---> he's bad
Joe Milton started at QB ---> he's good
Ty Isaac started at RB ---> he's bad
We've had situations like this before. You can't have it both ways.
IF starting means something, both Milton and Isaac (and Gardner) are good.
IF starting is pretty irrelevant and on-field performance matters, then Milton is bad.
I would ask you which one you prefer to be wrong about, but I'm sure you'll try to weasel out of it one way or another.
"I'm bored of arguing about Milton ... " 'but lemme add more BS, fluff, and half-truths'
DeleteMilton "won" his QB battles during camp, when no contact rules exist. Coaches have historically fallen for big arms, and Harbaugh/Huepel passing over small & unimpressive Cade or Hooker is not surprising. But once the live competition started, and Milton was flat footed in the pocket, as if playing two-hand touch in the backyard, it was obvious he was no good. Both coaches benched him (M against lowly rutger and UT in the middle of the second game)
Even without stats that rank him at the bottom of CFB QBs, watch the film: dude was God awful. Benching him was always painfully obvious as soon as the practice jersey came off, and live defenses were in play
If anything, Milton is irrefutable evidence that coaches get it wrong, and open dialogue among fans is perfectly fine.
*well, that and 'fan input is completely irrelevant to the team' 😉
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/university-of-tennessee/2022/02/20/hendon-hooker-tennessee-football-starting-quarterback-josh-heupel-pick/6668975001/
@Thunder
DeleteLOL. I've said countless numbers of times that Ty Isaac was a good college RB. He just wasn't good enough to start at a place like Michigan and be a standout. He wasn't better than the other options available. He was given a million chances to thrives but he was just a guy. Those who thought he had special talent - wrong! Impressed by the wrong thing. A RB who is big and can run fast in a straight line is the same thing as a QB who can throw the ball 70 yards in the air...very overrated by some.
Context matters. What I am saying is if you EARN a starting job, against legit competition, then you are probably not bad. Gardner didn't. Another WR who wasn't good is Jeremy Jackson, who started 4 games. BTW Devin Gardner was moved AWAY from WR and never played it again at any level after the half season you fell for because stats. Rewatch the tape - he didn't have any ball skills and his catch rate sucked.
So yeah, it's not that every person who starts is good. You're just making up your own arguments here against a strawman who says "Ty Isaac is bad" and "it's better to be drafted in later rounds" and a couple years ago "QBs never transfer". All fake arguments you've made because you don't want to engage in the substance of the point.
Meanwhile you say Denard Robinson was a bad QB. LOLOL
@JE
"Milton "won" his QB battles during camp"
Isn't camp the best time to win a job? Otherwise you win by default when the starter fails or gets hurt. That's what happened with Hooker and McNamara.
Milton has failed at a starter at two schools and that's on him. He also earned those job - not just in camp where he has never been touched. Milton played meaningful downs as a freshman against Wisconsin and did quite well before getting hurt in 2020. He passed people in practice, during the season, while at Michigan. All of that is eclipsed by his failings as a starter but they are relevant to why coaches chose him over McNamara and Hooker.
I'm surprised people are so anxious to write Milton's obituary. Seems hateful to me. But hey... there's people who think McNamara can't get better also. So maybe it's just an ignorance thing where they refuse to recognize the thousands of examples of players who are able to be good to excellent starters in college but don't show it until year 5 or 6. Or people who are liabilities on the field earlier in their careers and then sort out their limitations to be good players. It's a shame there no recent examples of this. Oh wait...Vastardis, Ojabo, and Gray are great examples just from the last Michigan team.
@Thunder
DeleteYou're playing dumb here. Gallon was there - a great college receiver. Roundtree was just a guy but he was playable. Dileo was playable too. So that's 3 guys but you need 5 or 6. Michigan needed 2 or 3 WRs...and who were the other options?
The reason Darboh and Chesson aren't relevant is because they weren't good enough to play. Jerald Robinson, Jeremy Jackson and Joe Reynolds were. They beat them out for playing time. Future NFLers or not, Darboh and Chesson were worse than that as freshman. This is true with Gardner and without Gardner. Those guys were not ready and thus not relevant to the competition. Period.
Meanwhile Milton played when Michigan had Peters, McCaffrey, and McNamara available. None of them are greats, but neither was Dileo or Roundtree. Now if Milton was competing against Villari and walk-ons, it would be comparable to the situation Gardner had at WR. Not a notable accomplishment.
I have nothing but respect for Gardner as a player. He was a really good QB, tough as hell, team player, underappreciated, excellent athlete for his size. I appreciate him for stepping in to fill a need at WR and he helped the team out.
The most relevant analogy I can think of is Ben Mason playing DL. He did it for the team, he produced some stats because they needed a warm body, he even started on the DL. But he wasn't good at the position so he went back to what he was good at when the team needs shifted.
If someone extrapolated Ben Mason's per snap stats to a full season and told you actually he was quite good at DL -- you'd laugh in their face. Rightfully so. Mason started on the DL because he's a good football player and a good athlete and did what the team needed at the time. But he wasn't a good DL at a Michigan-caliber program and he moved away from that role after a pretty short time. Very much like Gardner.
With Thunder's logic Ben Mason started over future NFLers Mazi Smith and Chris Hinton. He started as many games on the DL as Mike Danna. What a BEAST!
DeleteI'm being facetious. Thunder knew the score and described it here:
https://touch-the-banner.com/2019-season-countdown-1b-donovan-jeter/
"Michigan ain’t got no big guys."
But as he misread what would happen (Jeter didn't start any games that year but Mason did) he misread the WR situation of 2012. He called Gardner - who ran a 4.65 40 the best athlete at the position even though Jeremy Gallon - record setting WR and drafted by the NFL after running a 4.49 40 - was there too.
"Michigan ain’t got no big guys." fit there too.
So in both cases they threw out the best they could to see if something would stick. It didn't and back Mason and Gardner went to position where they could perform well not just be a passable body.
I'm confused. Part of your criticism of Gardner is that he never played WR again after the first half of 2012? Could that be because he became the starting QB?
DeleteFine. You win. You're right. Gardner was a bad WR because he never played the position again at any level.
Oh, but speaking of that...you know who never played QB at any level after that?
Denard Robinson.
I guess he must have been a bad QB.
Sorry, I don't make the rules.
LOL another strawman.
DeleteGardner was a bad WR at Michigan because he played poorly at WR at Michigan. The lack of interest in him from the NFL - AT ANY POSITION - doesn't prove that but it corroborates it.
Mason was a bad DT at Michigan because he played poorly at DT at Michigan. The NFL experience says nothing about that because he got drafted at another position.
Robinson was a great QB at Michigan because he played great at QB at Michigan. The NFL experience is up for interpretation as he got drafted to play RB. One CAN view that as an indictment of his QB skills OR one CAN view that as credit to skills he showed off as a college QB. While he wasn't a great NFL player, he did use both his running and passing skills at the next level.
Bring on your next strawman. I'm ready.
Who did Denard beat out at QB? Nick Sheridan? David Cone? Tate Forcier? Devin Gardner, a guy who never got a shot at the NFL at any position? Russell Bellomy?
DeleteIt's amazing how when I apply YOUR logic to someone you support, you find a way to twist it around and still argue for your guy to be good.
This has happened like three times in this conversation alone.
Devin Gardner earned a starting job over nobody; therefore, he must be bad.
Denard Robinson earned a starting job over nobody; therefore, he must be bad.
Again, I'd like to ask which one you want to admit to being wrong about...but as I said above, you weasel out of it when your own logic gets applied elsewhere.
Ha! The same guy who cries & accuses others of insults is calling the OP and owner of the site "dumb"
DeleteStay you Lank. You are nothing short of entertaining
@Thunder
DeleteYou want me to admit being wrong about things I didn't say? No, I don't think I will.
You'll have to be more clear about your claims of "my logic" because I'm not even understanding how you are trying to twist things around at this point. Now I said Denard was bad? LOL. I think you have me confused with...you.
So I'll clarify:
The thing that matters most is what you did. Another element is your role. A third is how you got to that role (i.e., context). Another is your age. Additional context is NFL (if available). MY LOGIC is to consider the full picture.
My criticism of Garnder - as a WR - is the same as my criticism of Mason as a DT. I watched him play there, he wasn't good, and he moved back.
DeleteMy praise for Robinson - as a QB - is the same as my praise of Gardner as a QB or Gallon as a WR. The college production speaks for itself regardless of the NFL. They were good, at Michigan.
My praise for Milton - which to be clear is very tepid, just contrasts with the vociferous animosity here (change positions, transfer to D3, BAD, etc)- is to point out that you have to be SOMEWHAT DECENT to beat out Peter, McCaffrey, McNamara, and Hooker over your career.
Even you said Joe Milton looked good at times.
https://touch-the-banner.com/michigan-49-minnesota-24/
What's funny is that you framed that as an "elephant in the room" instead of a good thing. It was more relevant to you that you were wrong than what was happening with the football team. And now you still want to be right so bad you'll make up arguments to argue against.
The elephant in the room is that Joe Milton keeps winning jobs at major college programs. Like Ty Isaac, he keeps getting opportunities because of his physical abilities but it's not clear those physical abilities are all that important. His performance does not seem to warrant a starting job at an elite college program. So he has lost those jobs. But that doesn't make him a BAD player it just means he wasn't good enough to shine at that level.
If you want to argue every coach is a moron for playing Milton that's fine - but the last time you went on the every-coach-is-a-moron angle was Ty Isaac and you got proven wrong there despite chance after chance after chance.
Joe Milton at QB : Ty Isaac at RB -- good but not good enough
Joe Milton at TE : Ty Isaac at TE -- a dubious fringe hypothetical
Ben Mason at FB : Devin Gardner at QB -- good college players who produced
Ben Mason at DT : Devin Gardner at WR -- bad college players who started out of need
Those 4 players are all history now but Milton still has 2 years of college eligibility left - that it looks like he'll use at this point.
DeleteHere's some fun stats for you. Passer Ratings in the 3rd year prior to eligibility expiring:
Milton: 113
Navarre: 116
Rudock: 127
Burrow: 110
Griese: 118
S.Bennett: 129
D.Jones: 112
Preskott: 126
Am I saying Milton is an NFL QB? No. Would I bet on it? No. Am I saying there's a chance? I'm saying there's a chance.
Some of you have written him off, and there's a good chance you're right to have done that - but most guys get better with age and Milton's story isn't over just yet.
@ Lank 1:46 p.m.
DeleteYou're moving the goalposts.
If the following are true:
1. Gardner started and was bad
2. Mason started and was bad
Then this must be true:
3. Milton started and was bad
You can't have different rules for different people unless you want to be called out for being inconsistent, which is what's happening right now.
The mitigating factor is that Gardner was a QB by trade, and Mason was a FB/LB. They at least had the excuse of, "Well, I never really played the position before."
Milton doesn't have that excuse. He trained for the job, he got on the field, and he was bad.
No, you didn't say Denard is bad. The point is that if Gardner didn't beat anybody noteworthy for the position, then Denard didn't either. And if not beating any good players out means you're bad, then both Gardner and Denard are bad.
DeleteWhom you beat for playing time isn't really relevant, either.
If Tom Brady, Drew Bledsoe, and Jimmy Garoppolo are on the same team, you're starting Tom Brady.
If Tom Brady, Thunder, and Lank are on the same team, you're starting Tom Brady.
I never said "not beating any good players out means you're bad."
DeleteBesides, Denard beat out Tate Forcier and held off Devin Gardner. Something like 10,000 yards and 100 TDs in college between them.
I think Cade has a good bit of upside left in him. He was only a junior last year. Michigan fans don't have to look far for examples of QBs who made massive leaps from their junior seasons to their 5th seasons in Rudock and Brady. The Heisman winner down in Baton Rouge did it just a couple years ago too.
ReplyDeleteFor all the talk about Cade avoiding turnovers and being a Steady Eddie of sorts his overall performance in 2021 was up and down. He had the deck stacked in his favor with an elite OL and run game, and he probably got lucky on some near turnovers (more than some other QBs IMO).
That's not to criticize him just to point out that the excellent performances MSU, Maryland, and Wisconsin could become more routine and the mediocre to bad performances could become more rare. I would argue that SHOULD happen. It would be a pretty typical career arc for a QB in his upper class years to become a more consistent player.
Some people will assume that guys who play early in their career are capped out sooner, but that's highly dubious. More likely that they have just as much room to grow as the guy we haven't seen yet, patiently waiting for their opportunity. Having your warts exposed doesn't hold back development, it enhances it.