Name: Jack Tuttle
Height: 6’4″
Weight: 211 lbs.
High school: San Marcos (CA) Mission Hills
Position: Quarterback
Class: Seventh year senior
Jersey number: #13
Last year: I ranked Tuttle #30 and said he would be the backup quarterback (LINK). He completed 15/17 passes for 130 yards and 1 touchdown; he also ran 4 times for 35 yards.
TTB Rating: N/A
Tuttle transferred from Indiana to Michigan prior to the 2023 season. He was brought in to be a backup to J.J. McCarthy, and there has been some talk that he plans to embark on a coaching career and wanted to be around a winning program to give him a better chance at succeeding in the coaching profession. But that shouldn't diminish his talent: he's a former 4-star quarterback who's pretty accurate and runs well.
The problem is and has always been his injury status. Much like former Indiana quarterback Michael Penix, every season seems to involve a pretty serious injury. It's almost like the Hoosiers can't protect their quarterbacks . . . but then again, Tuttle got hurt behind Michigan's offensive line, too. He seems to just be one of those injury-prone guys. But that didn't stop him from completing 15 out of 17 passes on the season. When he was called upon in blowouts, he delivered the ball accurately.
Can he do that in crunch time at Michigan? Will he even have the chance? As you can see, I'm ranking him #53, so I'm thinking he won't be much of a factor in the starting quarterback race. He had off-season surgery and did not participate in spring practice. Recent rumors suggest that he's back to feeling some soreness after looking solid earlier this summer. While I do think he could be a game manager type if he was healthy, it's tough to think he'll suddenly survive a season intact in year seven of his football career. Talent-wise, I think he's the #2 or maybe even #1 quarterback on the roster, but in reality, I'm putting him at QB3 for 2024.
Prediction: Backup quarterback
I've seen clips with Tuttle practicing, and behind our projected starting OL ... injuries aside, he's the one I'm least uncomfortable with - I think we can win 9 almost certainly
ReplyDeleteOrji seems to have all the hype, but we M fans should be wary of camp hype - his footwork in spring was still really bad, in year 3 on campus
Davis Warren just didn't impress in games - quite the opposite - but even Orji gloats on Warren's fundamentals
Tossup. For the purpose of this exercise, I can see putting both Tuttle & Warren low on the countdown, and Orji high. Not because he's suddenly a heart QB, but more like the Donovan Jeter ranking a few years ago: because we NEED this to work in order to make the playoff
I think Tuttle might look good in practice, and in fact, he looked good in games last year. But if you get to him on the depth chart, I think you'll get to the next guy, too. If he's #2, you're going to get the #3 guy at some point. If he's #3 and he gets on the field...well, #4 better be ready, too.
DeleteOh interesting! A very surprising ranking to me as I would put Tuttle in the top 20 and expect him to be the top backup if not a part time starter. The injury concern here is very legit, but so is the uncertainty about Orji.
ReplyDeleteI don't see Tuttle as being even in the top 3 in terms of talent in QB room, but what he lacks there I think he makes up for with experience and maturity. Being over 25 years old is a "man amongst boys" situation. There's a lot of football games, practices, playbooks, coaching talking points and meetings that Tuttle has to draw from that put him ahead of a freshman like Jadyn Davis but also consider he has 3 X the college years as Alex Orji.
Here's the thing that makes me think we as a fan base are understating Tuttle's importance at the moment. Tuttle has spoken about how his surgery was delayed through the end of last season "in case something happened", which is why he missed the spring. That tells me there's a decent chance if not a likelihood that he was the top option to step in if JJ McCarthy got injured.
Did that change in the off-season? While there's a chance the younger guys are going to surge ahead of him, but I suspect some of the lack of buzz is simply that Tuttle has not been available in spring and now missing parts of fall camp. Michigan coaches tend to ignore the guys who aren't available for practice, but we have no indication it's a long term injury with Tuttle. So, I assume he'll be healthy in the fall and be a big factor in games.
But hey I thought Alan Bowman was going to play a big role a few years ago and I was dead wrong about that. Definitely a chance that happens again.
Orji is getting all the buzz right now and there's no doubt he's a factor but Tuttle maybe the top dual-threat (run and pass) and his experience and age maybe just the mistake avoiding QB this 2024 team needs (especially if the defense is as good as we hope and the playmakers Edwards-Loveland-Morris-Morgan are impactful).
I guess I think Tuttle is more talented than you perceive him. He's 6'4", 211, can run, and throws a decent ball.
DeleteBut how much can you rely on a guy who's always injured? I can't say he's super important to the team if I'm expecting him to get injured if/when he plays any extended time.
Back in 2018, he had pretty strong recruiting rankings but ended up at Utah. That's meh. Then he struggled and transferred to Indiana, which is more instructive. He started there but wasn't very good, which is most instructive of all.
DeleteI don't really care if he's 6'10 or 5'10, if he's 180 pounds or 280 pounds -- I care about how well he can play the position and through 6 years in college he has not been very good. So I'm not seeing a guy with much talent given how he has bounced around and what he has done. I would put him below Alan Bowman in terms of talent level. Bowman has shown far more in his 6 years than Tuttle.
If you have talent, at some point it's going to show up in results, or you don't actually have all that much of it - right?
The injury concerns are really a separate issue. I don't believe you can predict injuries, generally, but obviously Tuttle has a 6 year track record here that is not encouraging at all.
DeleteCan you rely on him? Maybe not, but that doesn't mean he isn't going to start at some point against Texas, Oregon or OSU. It doesn't mean he isn't going to rotate to be QB1b or sub in for an ineffective starter at some point. It doesn't mean he isn't going to come in for some meaningful drives when Orji gets his bell rung.
You get the point. I think Tuttle is going to be a key player on this team, even if he isn't QB1 for the full season.
Your rankings are not about reliability they are about importance and I would say that as a likely QB2 and potential QB1 is a big deal. I think that's the case even if you're an Orji optimist but especially for anyone who strongly doubts Orji's ability. Part time (due to injury) or full time, Tuttle is potentially a major player on this team.
I would think two aspects you have voiced (Orji skepticism, Tuttle's talent) would outweigh the injury concern, but it seems like you are making a prediction here that Tuttle simply won't be available and therefore won't be important to the 2024 team. That the QB position will get handled by some combination of Warren and Orji with Tuttle in the background.
It's possible, I just don't see this as being a very likely. Will certainly be interesting to watch.
Tuttle played poorly for a team that's poor except for when Heisman candidate/#8 overall pick Michael Penix played for them. And even Penix was bad at times.
DeleteTuttle played well for Michigan when he wasn't on a sucky team.
I don't think Tuttle is a potential Heisman winner. I do think he's talented. I don't think he will play much.
Yes, Tuttle wasn't anywhere near Penix while they both played at Indiana. And Tuttle was a year older than Penix too. But being worse than Penix is not really a big issue.
DeleteWhat is? Tuttle ALSO wasn't as good as Payton Ramsey. Or Donovan McCulley. Or Grant Gremel. and he lost the starting QB competition to Connor Bazelak -- who is now a MAC QB. We're talking about a guy who is worse than Bazelak, even with an experience advantage.
That's not indicative of much talent. This guy has been around for 6 years and his best performance was mop up duty in his 6th year, surrounded by NFL players at the other 10 spots. So to me the idea of Tuttle's perceived talent is a real head-scratcher.
Can't just make excuses for guys for playing for bad teams - most of them are on bad teams for a reason. They will show something if they have something to show even in those contexts (think of Michael Penix at Indiana or Alan Bowman at Texas Tech or Devin Gardner on bad Michigan offenses).
Playing for a good team like Michigan will certainly elevate some mediocre QBs (Speight, McNamara, Rudock all produced solid passer ratings and winning seasons while at Michigan and looked far worse in other contexts). Tuttle could fit the mold, but it would be another case of a guy being elevated by the context, not some untapped talent shining through.
I think saying Tuttle played well for MIchigan is a stretch anyway. His passing was unremarkable and the main takeaway was that he was getting used as a runner. [To me this indicates that he was competing with Orji to be the run package change of pace QB].
DeleteHere's Alex at Mgoblog's read on it:
"Tuttle had a play of consequence in five games last season, UNLV, Nebraska, Minnesota, Indiana, and Michigan State. Brian graded him pretty favorably but there's a big caveat- most of the catchable balls in the below table were check-downs or outright screens"
" After reviewing the tape on last season it looks like Tuttle has substantial rushing ability, which could strengthen his argument for the starting job and weaken Alex Orji's. That's about all you can take away from Tuttle's appearances at the tail-end of blowout games against defeated opponents, but it isn't insignificant. "
I'm not sure I can agree with Alex on the significance. Again, I think the main thing with Tuttle is the fact that he's 25 and been around 3 programs over 6 years including last year at Michigan. I don't think he's a very good QB, but he could be mistake-avoider who doesn't cost you games. If the OL gels and the defense dominates, that might be enough to make the playoff.
Lank: part time starter
Deletealso Lank: he's not talented; here's why he's no good ...
me: remembering the spring debate where I expressed doubts in the QB room, and Lank was positive - while listing QB as priority ONE for transfers
dude is DESPERATE for argument
@ Lank 11:03 a.m.
Deletea) You keep on bringing up Tuttle's rushing ability, which I don't really care about, because I think he's going to get hurt if/when he runs. If you use him like Orji, he's going to break into pieces.
b) I think we've had the discussion about talent before, and you and I disagree on the definition of it. So I think we're kind of at a standstill when it comes to that discussion.
c) From an ITF that was just posted this evening: "They are battling it out, and there’s still hope that Tuttle will get back to full strength and be firmly in the mix at some point, too. As noted, he was throwing the ball extremely well this summer." You gave me Alex Drain. I give you an ITF report. Sometimes people have different opinions.
All that being said...I'm ranking Tuttle at #53. This might turn out to be one of those situations where you rag on me for years for saying Tuttle is talented even though I ranked him in the 50s. I'm not going to spend a ton of time arguing about a guy who has thrown 17 passes in a Michigan uniform and will probably be the #2 or #3 guy in his seventh and final season of college football.
@Thunder
Deletea)I know you don't value rushing ability but THAT is what was most impressive about Tuttle's performance in 2023. You discount Denard's passing because he made easy throws that the offensive scheme gave him, but that's exactly what was happening for Tuttle.
b)Yeah I mean you're probably right. I'm 6'3, but I don't think that gives me any sort of "talent" to play QB.
c)I don't see any conflict or disagreement with Alex Drain. What am I missing?
d)I have no intent of ragging on you for years LOL. I think it's a situation where you are going to be wrong but like I said in my earlier post, I thought Alan Bowman was going to be a starter in 2021. I said here that I would put Alan Bowman in my top 10.
https://touchthebanner.blogspot.com/2021/07/2021-season-countdown-41a-alan-bowman.html
I never rag on you for bad predictions, I rag on you for stuff where your evaluations are wrong but you continue to insist they are not (like Ty Isaac, Michael Cox, and Jake Rudock). For you, I think there's a tendency to want to be right in your predictions so much that it clouds your judgement. It's when you retroactively evaluate incorrectly that I tend to be critical. I don't take predictions very seriously, certainly not as seriously as you.
Finally, talent and ranking are different issues. I don't see any conflict with you putting Tuttle at 53 and saying he's a talent. There's a lot of guys who are very talented outside of the top 50 -- most of them are young and have no meaningful role on this team but they will in future seasons. Like Jaydn Davis. Tuttle isn't a young player though, the exact opposite - he's a grown ass man at 25, playing on a team with a bunch of teenagers. I don't see any evidence of talent, beyond the fact that he's a QB on the Michigan roster, which does not necessarily put him ahead of say Malzone, O'Korn, or Speight.
@Jelly
DeleteHere you are again wanting to talk to Lank about Lank and throwing out the word desperate with no self-reflection. Never change.
I'll explain to you why your attempts at gotcha are as stupid as always.
"Lank: part time starter
also Lank: he's not talented; here's why he's no good ..."
Yes JE - sometimes not very talented players get a big role on a team. sometimes not very talented players leverage knowledge and experience. These are different things and each matter in terms of production on the field. Tuttle has shown no talent (relative to starting QBs at Michigan, even below average ones) through six years of college. But Michigan has no proven players or even talent at the QB position, so there's an opportunity for someone like Tuttle to have a huge role.
"me: remembering the spring debate where I expressed doubts in the QB room, and Lank was positive - while listing QB as priority ONE for transfers"
Yes? My perspective hasn't changed at all since the off-season. I think I'm more encouraged than I was about Orji given the positive camp reports but I still think that QB is going to be a relative weak spot on the roster. I still wish they had hit the Portal because I think they could have done better than Tuttle, but I think Orji is the one hope that the coaches made the right call in (seemingly) not bothering.
You've failed again jelly. Again, you aren't built for this. #caseclosed
Lesson learned (for me) on the bad Bowman prediction in 2021 was that age should be considered right alongside experience on the field. Bowman had a lot more experience and production but he was only a year older than McNamara and he didn't have the advantage of being in the program for the last 2 years - he was just showing up.
DeleteAnother lesson learned was that if a guy is that old he probably doesn't have a whole lot more "talent" than what he has shown. But he can learn to manage (and be managed) to fit the team. I overrated Bowman's talent and potential leading up to 2021 and while he's starting now at Oklahoma State, he is very old for college and still producing mediocre stats and not considered an NFL prospect. He's probably a better QB than McNamara all things considered, but McNamara was a better QB for the 2021 football team. I trust the coaches made the right call there.
What does it mean for the 2024 QB situation -- probably not much! With the exception of Davis (who is reportedly not even in the race), all the potential starters were already here last year. The age gap between Tuttle and Orji is massive -- 4 years. Warren, who I am skeptical of, is closer to Tuttle at 22 already, but he has next to no experience and even his high school career was abbreviated on the field due to COVID and injuries. Perhaps the lesson learned from 2021 is that that lack of experience may not be prohibitive of either a starting role nor a strong season from the team.
I made an error on ages above. Tuttle is 25, so 5 years older than Orji (20) and 3 years older than Warren (22). I think that 5 years of additional experience is a big advantage and potentially makes up for his lack of talent.
DeleteIn Warren's case I don't think the 2 years is enough to make up the talent gap with Orji, though I don't really know yet how much talent Orji has beyond rushing ability - only interpretation based on coaching staff decisions. More relevant in Warren's case is that he's a 22 year old walk-on so I don't see any reason to think he is especially talented either. Best indicator on Warren is that he seems to be clearly ahead of Denegal and Davis. That's something! But not much.
"For you, I think there's a tendency to want to be right in your predictions so much that it clouds your judgement"
DeleteSays the guy arguing in favor of Milton, while knowing he was garbage ... Or, arguing against concerns about the QB room - and Orji specifically - while having the same concerns ...
You do this to yourself. Lying to yourself is far more destructive than some random internet dude who points it out
@JElly
DeleteThat's already #caseclosed. You said he lacked patience (he didn't), would transfer if Shea Patterson was healthy (he was but Joe stuck around to win the starting job anyway), and that he needed to transfer to a lower level to play (instead he started in the SEC, won an Orange Bowl MVP, led a top 15 team, and got drafted to the NFL).
The only liar here is you jelly. Go back and read the posts. You aren't built for this.
The common theme between Milton and Orji is early dismissal based on a tiny number of snaps and conjecture about position changes, by some.
DeleteI have no real knowledge to confidently say if Orji can be a good QB or not, but you'd think some lessons might get learned, and minds get opened, from the Joe Milton experience resulting in a successful college QB, good enough for the NFL. Especially when: it was always supposed to take time for him to develop, and the coaches see value in putting him on the field in meaningful situations early in his career, and the coaches appear poised to put him in the starting lineup over supposedly "talented" alternatives in year 3.
I said Milton would transfer, and he did. I was right
DeleteThat I provided scenarios to add to the discussion is me NOT avoiding my takes. This is in contrast with the board contrarian, who knew all along that Milton was garbage, but defended him for drama. You still predicted he wouldn't get drafted or make the team, but - unlike a true faith debate - dodged when asked why ... you exposed yourself last week: you knew all along he was garbage
*I don't think we want to compare Orji (year3) with Milton, who in his year3 was GARBAGE, by your own admission
Besides, Orji hasn't shown to be indecisive like garbage Milton. Instead, he's quite deliberate (and violent), at least as a runner
#tooeasy
Patterson's health had no effect and he was patient as can be. Nobody believes your lies but you.
DeleteI defended Milton from your baseless dumb accusations -- which have been thoroughly debunked over and over again. Needing to go to D3 to start is A BIG step away from being a NFL QB. Plenty of room in between, but you want to need to move the goalposts and make things up. Nobody believes your lies but you.
Say it again. You aren't built for this JElly
Lmao, what a dodge! ... no facts - delusional
Delete#iwasright
#outsmarted
#caseclosed
#caseclosed
DeleteBut keep shining the spotlight on your Ls
White flag accepted
DeleteYou're the white flag expert. That's why your advice to Milton was so trash and your assessment of Milton was so trash. Not everyone thinks avoiding challenge is the way to go and advise running away from the first sign of adversity and project "impatience" where there is none.
DeleteTrash? Don't you mean, GARBAGE? lmao, you do it to yourself Lank!
DeleteRunning away is transferring after cade beat him ... opting for FCS or G5 would have provided much needed live reps - you get better at football by playing football (or so I've heard). Guess who else played FCS? Bailey Zappe, the guy currently ahead of Milton on the depth chart and drafted two rounds earlier ... less talent coming out of High School, but got much better by playing the game
you lost, just own it
I had to google what the Jason Witten honor is. Here's their description of Milton headed in 2023.
DeleteJoe Milton III, Tennessee (Sr., QB) — Despite season-altering injuries at Michigan and Tennessee during his first season as a starter at both programs, Milton used that adversity to continue to grow as a player and a leader. After losing the starting job due to injury two seasons ago, Milton chose to stay at Tennessee and is now the undisputed leader of Tennessee’s explosive offense. The MVP of last season’s Orange Bowl win over Clemson, Milton overcame many hardships in his childhood, including the passing of his baby sister to become a father figure to his younger sisters and one of the most recognized figures in the Knoxville community. He has built a strong bond with his teammates, which has included involving them in some of his NIL partnerships, and he regularly visits the East Tennessee Children’s Hospital and local elementary schools.
https://jasonwitten82.com/jason-witten-collegiate-man-of-the-year-announces-20-semifinalists-for-seventh-annual-award/
Face the facts Jelly you're lying only to yourself!
*GARBAGE is our word to describe Milton ... never forget that Lank
DeleteWhy lie? When I recommended FCS or G5, it was for immediate and plenty of live reps as the anectdote for his GARBAGE issues. A year or two may have helped ... it worked for Zappe, and would have helped Joe MUCH more than riding the bench for two more years ... that's a solid take, based on reality & history
You're including accolades, even unrealized top2os unrelated to performance. Meanwhile you ignore that the scouts, UFR and general assessment agreed with why we thought Joe was GARBAGE, but that his potential (arm) was probably still worthy of risk
I think you just like to lie ... as you projected onto Thunder "So I'm going to make up my own definition of ... "
#caseclosed
These are the facts JE. You don't like them. That's on you.
DeleteThe scouts said "based on what this guy showed in college he's in small set of elite players that move on to the pros". Milton's path worked great for Milton - he outplayed his high school ranking (behind Jack Tuttle) and outplayed your modest expectations. The pundits said he was one of the best 100 players in college football. The stats say he was a top 40 QB in all of college football, while playing in the best conference. The results say he was starting for a top 15 team in a top 15 offense. He won an Orange Bowl MVP. He EARNED the accolades, by playing well enough to impress people.
But you disagree. Nevermind the facts.
Let me try a different tact.
Did Joe MIlton, starting in an opener against Minnesota in 2020 look like a substantially different QB to you than Joe Milton starting in the opener against Virginia in 2023. Different uniform -- different supporting cast -- different head coach -- 3 years later -- but did you see a substantially different player?
Garbage is how MIlton played at the end of 2020 after he was injured. Same with McNamara at the end of 2020. Two seperate starting QBs at MIchigan and another elite program looked like garbage at the end of 2020.
DeleteMilton fell off a cliff in the second half of his 2020 season. McNamara fell off a cliff in his one start against PSU (compared to his one good game against Rutgers). Both were affected by injuries but tried to play through it.
Maybe the similarities between these two very different QBs says more about the 2020 team than the QBs.
https://247sports.com/Season/2018-Football/RecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=highschool/&PositionGroup=QB
DeleteThe consensus 18th ranked QB (34th to 247) in the class who was supposed to be worse than Jack Tuttle, Tyler Shough, and Adrian Martinez and many others because a starter at Michigan and Tennesee, won an orange bowl MVP, led a top 15 team, earned a bunch of accolades for character and leadership, and got himself drafted to the NFL.
Objectively and unquestionably -- Tremendous success for Joe Milton!
But watch out folks! Jelly Brain can strike at any time. Here we have "But if he had transferred to Western Kentucky instead!" he might have been higher up on the depth chart as an NFL rookie. While talking about reality LOL. LOL.
Your lies only work on you Jelly.
Ooooh, three replies ... #rentfree
DeleteDo I even bother acknowledging your irrelevant "facts"?
Eh, how about this ... you started with a Milton-Orji comparison, which was waaay off. You've moved the target, onto Joe as a big brother
REEEACHING is the way of LankTheDefeated ... white flag accepted
LOL. Moved the target eh? What was the target for Joe Milton you had again? That's right it was a backup who lacked patience and needed to go to D3 to start. He's now a proven starter who led a top 15 team out of the SEC and in the NFL.
Delete#caseclosed
Still gotta look up that pesky "comparison" word. Someday....
You're lying. The narrative was ... GARBAGE. You agreed
Delete#caseclosed
You only convince yourself with your weirdo fantasies. No quotes! No evidence! Just Jelly obsessing about Lank, desperate for attention. You aren't built for this though.
DeleteWhat was the target for Joe Milton you had again?
DeleteLet me know if you want me to bring out the #quotes and the #evidence.
You aren't built for this.
#caseclosed
You're in denial. The narrative was GARBAGE ... we had a three year exchange on it. You knew, and let it slip recently
DeleteAccept your L. L for liar, L for Loss
#caseclosed
Garbage is how MIlton played at the end of 2020 after he was injured.
DeleteWinning the starting job at Tenn in 2021 was #caseclosed.
Injuries matter. You know who isn't injured? The 3 QBs on the New England Patriots. Oh also, Bailey Zappe LOLOL
Keep the garbage takes coming Jelly. It's high comedy.
#GARBAGE
If by "end of 2o2o" you mean Oct & Nov, you're finally onto something
Delete#onequote
#caseclosed
Tuttle is QB3? Injury prone or not, I think Tuttle is QB2. I doubt the coaches will bring him back to be QB3.
ReplyDeleteBowman was, TBF, but I agree with you FT
Delete