Name: Dominic Nichols
Height: 6'5”
Weight: 251 lbs.
High school: Frederick (MD) Oakdale
Position: Defensive end
Class: Freshman
Jersey number: #33
Last year: Nichols was a senior in high school (LINK). He made 84 tackles, 15.5 sacks, 1 interception, and 77 quarterback pressures.
TTB Rating: 79
Nichols had an outstanding senior season with 15.5 sacks and, according to MGoBlue, a school record of 77 pressures. I have no idea about the history of Oakdale, but it's hard to imagine getting more than 77 pressures in a high school season. His senior season showed some athletic and technical development, and he was blowing up high schoolers trying to block him.
Nichols enrolled early over the winter and participated in spring practices. He looked bigger than I expected (I figured he would be around 260 instead of listed at 251) and seemed like he could be a guy who gets an early role in mop-up situations. He's probably not a guy who will rotate in during key moments, but Michigan is looking for people to step up at the edge positions; outside of Josaiah Stewart, Derrick Moore, and T.J. Guy, nobody really seems to know what to expect from the other edges. But this is a position that played at least four guys regularly in 2023, including Stewart, Moore, Braiden McGregor, and Jaylen Harrell. Can Nichols maybe be that fifth edge, kind of like T.J. Guy, who played 81 defensive snaps in 2023?
Prediction: Backup defensive end
There is a large pile of Maybe after the top 3 at EDGE. Hopefully we start hearing buzz on specifics in fall camp but for now Nichols seems like one of the indistinguishable masses.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of mass, he's up to 261 on the latest roster for whatever that is worth.
I mean, anything's possible. Michigan does have the defense to win a national championship. But J.J. McCarthy was a perfectly capable runner - and a very good passer - and even he had some close calls where throwing the ball was an important part of Michigan's recipe for winning games. I don't think you can do what Michigan did to Penn State in 2023 on a week-to-week basis. Against Oregon or Texas or Ohio State or Alabama, that catches up to you.
ReplyDeleteI've said for a long time that I don't think you can win a national championship or a Super Bowl in this era without having a good passing attack. Denard Robinson in J.J. McCarthy's place doesn't win the national championship in 2023. Now maybe Orji will prove me wrong and turn out to be a good passer, but we have yet to see it.
I agree with you regarding JJ, except that I view him as better than a capable runner, better even than a perfectly capable runner. He was a big time threat to my way of thinking, whether they chose to exercise his legs or not.
ReplyDeleteOur problem is that we don't have a guy that can match him throwing the football. Again, I think both Warren and Tuttle are pretty good, and are legit QBs. I just don't see either as a championship guy. Orji, throwing the football hasn't shown himself to be as good at throwing it even as either of the other two. But, Orji is significantly better running it than either of the other two, and is better throwing it than either of the other two are at running it.
I've pointed this out before, I've always held on to it because I think it's just so damn funny. On the legendary "Just get me the ball Wags" throw to Anthony Carter against Indiana, we ran play action because we didn't have a straight drop back play in the whole playbook.
Do I want to see Orji dropping straight back to pass? Hell no!!! But I would love seeing him drop back to RPO. Run that unbalanced stuff all day, Make the Frazier kid ... if he can do it blocking ... your eligible outside tackle. He's played tight end. Or some big person that can catch and more important is a threat to cave in a side. Send everyone one way on a route, leave Orji a backside to run it, Send everyone outside, scheme him some lanes between the tackles. Do just a little Denard stuff. Fake a run toward the line, then lob it over the top. Hell I think everyone can agree that Orji throws it better than Denard. Although, Denard didn't miss that lob very often, if ever, just because it was a lob to a spot where only a wide open guy could get to.
I keep thinking that if I can see it, a real smart OC has to be able to see it. And I can't think up a way to stop it beyond better athletes, even tho I know there has to be one. If you got better athletes, God Bless You. Give Orji a passing game that also offers him up grass to run to/through. I think we can win this thing.
Roanman
You will see Orji dropping straight back to pass - guaranteed!
DeleteI'm with you on changing the offense to better suit his running ability but I think Michigan is not willing to change things as much as many of us hope. (Which is why I expect Tuttle and Orji to rotate for much of the season until the other one gets hurt or emerges as clearly superior.)
I got time on my hands so I'm gonna pretend I'm Lanky and keep going.
ReplyDeleteTo stop it, somewhat, I think you gotta spy Orji. But, who do spy him with? Your middle linebacker, most likely. But he better be damn fast. I'm thinking he better be like Brian Urlacher-ish fast, and you still probably have to step him back a bit to give him a view and keep him out of the wash. I can live with that. I'd rather be wanting to get a hat on you 3 yards back than on the line of scrimmage. And I'm using every trick in the book to create all kinds of wash both supposed playside and backside.
Safety maybe? He better really like tackling, and he better have impeccable vision for play action even tho ball handling skill is in decline. IMHO And he way double better be a way double good decision maker on run/pass options and fakes. Way double redundancy fully intended.
And finally, I keep beating this poor dead sucker, I know, hardly anybody does what we do, it isn't like ... pick your favorite college approach to offense ... you don't see what we do 2-3-maybe 4 times a season. We are mostly real different. Then throw in the fact that presently we hit more than much/most of the rest of the country. Grinding is fun for us.
I really our chances with Orji. Texas is huge, Orji may not be ready, or the guy even, but I'm not feeling the other two at all.
I think Tuttle can be a good player in this offense and we saw last year that he could run, so you can keep that threat going (like we did last year) all game long (as opposed to the McNamara/Speight/Rudock seasons where we were one dimensional and had to sub in run-threat packages). The defense could cheat.
DeleteWhat entices me about Orji is that you have skill position playmaking talent to put around him. Edwards, Loveland, Morgan are PLAYMAKERS and they are out there as starters. If a defense is going to cheat to stop our QB running, we don't need Orji to be making them pay with passes deep downfield. A simple swing pass to Edwards can be death.
We are very well setup to support a QB who turbo-charges the run game because of the EXCEPTIONAL receiving abilities of our TE and RB. And our WRs are not exactly Nico Collins but they do have the Harball grit, and some wiggle/juice. There's a lot of Ronnie Bell flavor to our WR group right now.
I honestly think it's a lot less about Orji getting to be an accurate passer (McNamara never was) as it is about getting to be an accurate decision-maker pre-snap (like McNamara) and post-snap. McNamara is the biggest role model to me, for Orji to look at, even though their skills are so different. Can you read the D, can you make the most of your limitations, can you support your excellent supporting cast by making good decisions. The run stuff is going to be there for Orji, that's a given in my mind, so can you work through your limitations as a passer to focus on executing the playbook effectively. Don't try throws you can't make - take what the defense gives you. Which should be plenty with his running and the threat of Edwards and Loveland.
Anyway, I like your optimism for Texas Roanman.
McNamara was never an accurate passer? He's literally #4 in completion percentage in Michigan history (of players with 100+ attempts), and one of the 3 guys ahead of him (J.J. McCarthy) played after him. So when McNamara was at Michigan, he was the #3 most accurate passer in Michigan history behind Todd Collins and Jake Rudock.
DeleteYes Thunder, he was never an accurate passer.
DeleteHe was managed. Michigan won despite him in 2021, with NFL talent on offense all over the field, except for him. Joe Moore OL, loaded with NFL talent at the skill positions (HH, Corum, Edwards, Bell, Wilson, Johnson, Schoonmacher, All, Sainristil).
When challenged to do more in 2022 and against Iowa he looked like garbage.
Don't believe me? Here's an NFL draft pundit's take:
"McNamara’s accuracy and ball placement are spotty, at best. His passing efficiency declines the further he attempts down the field. McNamara’s arm strength dwindles on deep pass attempts. These throws lose steam and become underthrown as a result. He struggles to effectively attack man coverage deep down the field. His decision-making needs work. He tends to put the ball in harm’s way for potential turnovers."
https://www.thedraftnetwork.com/2024/07/30/cade-mcnamara-scouting-report-nfl-draft
@ Lank 7:03 p.m.
DeleteSo...McNamara wasn't managed in 2022? Or against Iowa? When he was good, it was because of the team. When he was bad, it was because of him.
Someone else who looked like garbage at Michigan:
Joe Milton.
Yes Joe Milton looked like garbage at Michigan. Congrats on a point no one argued with.
DeleteThe difference between 2021 and 2020 was that the QBs were put in a position to succeed in 2021 and not 2020.
That went for Cade too:
Compare his start against PSU in 2020 to his start against PSU in 2021.
McNamara wasn't managed in 2022. He was given an opportunity to win the job instead of trying to simply win games as the default starter and avoid mistakes, in 2022 he was challenged to run a full offense as JJ could by that point.
McNamara wasn't ever a good QB. The team was good in 2021 and it was good in 2022. It was bad in 2020 - just like McNamara was bad, except against Rutgers (and Milton was bad, except against Minnesota).
"Yes Joe Milton looked like garbage at Michigan. Congrats on a point no one argued with"
DeleteExcept YOU ... for years now. Some people like to argue, indeed
#caseclosed
Let me know where I argued he played great at Michigan. I'll wait.
DeleteNo quotes. No evidence. No facts. Just jelly being jelly.
Shhhh ... you had me at "garbage"
Delete#caseclosed
https://tenor.com/view/cuckoo-jack-black-shallowhal-crazy-looney-gif-19733936
So mad that Joe Milton keeps proving you wrong again and again.
DeleteDon't be mad JElly, he's proving a lot of people wrong, including me.
Proving me wrong? How? I was right: garbage
Delete#caseclosed
#caseclosed
DeleteCAREER HONORS
2024 Reese's Senior Bowl Invitee
Maxwell Award Player of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
Manning Award Star of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
Reese's Senior Bowl Offensive Player of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
East-West Shrine Bowl Monday Morning Quarterback (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
SEC Co-Offensive Player of the Week (vs. Virginia, 9/2/23)
2023 Jason Witten Collegiate Man of the Year Semifinalist
2023 Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award Top 25 Candidate
2022 Capital One Orange Bowl MVP
CAREER
Strong-armed, veteran quarterback who played three seasons with the Vols after beginning his career at Michigan … Played in 43 games with 21 starts in his collegiate career, including 29 appearances at Tennessee with 16 starts … Possesses all of the tools to be a future NFL quarterback … Served as the starter for the first two games of the 2021 season for UT before being injured … Stayed the course, developed and spelled an injured Hendon Hooker to start the final two games of the 2022 campaign, capping it with an MVP performance in the Capital One Orange Bowl … Enrolled at Tennessee in June 2021 after playing three seasons at Michigan, including the 2020 campaign in which he was the starter in five games … Wore the SEC graduate patch after earning his bachelor’s degree from Michigan in May 2021 … In 14 career games at Michigan, accounted for 1,350 total yards of offense — 1,194 passing and 156 rushing — and eight TDs – five passing and three rushing ... Wore No. 5 at Michigan but wore No. 7 at Tennessee, the number he wore in high school ... Owned a 13-8 record as a starter in college, including 11-5 at Tennessee … In three seasons with the Vols, completed 314- of-498 (.631) passes for 4,159 yards and 32 touchdowns with five interceptions … Accounted for 4,664 yards of total offense at UT, adding nine scores and 505 yards on the ground ... Finished 12th in UT career total offense … Threw 216 passes at UT before his first interception as a Vol, which was the second-longest streak of attempts without a pick in program history (Hendon Hooker, 261) and the ninth-longest streak in SEC history ... From Nov. 12, 2022 vs. Missouri to Nov. 11, 2023 at Missouri, threw at least one touchdown pass in 14 consecutive appearances, which is the third-longest streak in UT history ... Fired 24 completions of 40 or more yards in his time at Tennessee … Ranked among college football’s top 100 players for the 2023 season by On3.com … Selected to and participated in the Senior Bowl in January.
#caseclosed
Deletethe case was closed last year, and confirmed with GARBAGE ... now it's about you flailing about, reeeaching for crap like "he's a good brother"
Delete#caseclosed
Confirmed in 2021 that your take was garbage.
DeleteReaffirmed in 2022.
Again in 2023.
2024 draft and camp....yep you guessed it.
Garbage takes from Jelly. For YEARS.
You aren't built for this. You could have put it down when the case was closed the first time, but you want to keep holding that L up so high.
Nobody knows your wacko references numbnuts. Soros! Do your own research! Nobody believes your lies but you. So confused and spinning in circles. LOL
The facts you can't argue with:
#caseclosed
CAREER HONORS
2024 Reese's Senior Bowl Invitee
Maxwell Award Player of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
Manning Award Star of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
Reese's Senior Bowl Offensive Player of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
East-West Shrine Bowl Monday Morning Quarterback (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
SEC Co-Offensive Player of the Week (vs. Virginia, 9/2/23)
2023 Jason Witten Collegiate Man of the Year Semifinalist
2023 Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award Top 25 Candidate
2022 Capital One Orange Bowl MVP
CAREER
Strong-armed, veteran quarterback who played three seasons with the Vols after beginning his career at Michigan … Played in 43 games with 21 starts in his collegiate career, including 29 appearances at Tennessee with 16 starts … Possesses all of the tools to be a future NFL quarterback … Served as the starter for the first two games of the 2021 season for UT before being injured … Stayed the course, developed and spelled an injured Hendon Hooker to start the final two games of the 2022 campaign, capping it with an MVP performance in the Capital One Orange Bowl … Enrolled at Tennessee in June 2021 after playing three seasons at Michigan, including the 2020 campaign in which he was the starter in five games … Wore the SEC graduate patch after earning his bachelor’s degree from Michigan in May 2021 … In 14 career games at Michigan, accounted for 1,350 total yards of offense — 1,194 passing and 156 rushing — and eight TDs – five passing and three rushing ... Wore No. 5 at Michigan but wore No. 7 at Tennessee, the number he wore in high school ... Owned a 13-8 record as a starter in college, including 11-5 at Tennessee … In three seasons with the Vols, completed 314- of-498 (.631) passes for 4,159 yards and 32 touchdowns with five interceptions … Accounted for 4,664 yards of total offense at UT, adding nine scores and 505 yards on the ground ... Finished 12th in UT career total offense … Threw 216 passes at UT before his first interception as a Vol, which was the second-longest streak of attempts without a pick in program history (Hendon Hooker, 261) and the ninth-longest streak in SEC history ... From Nov. 12, 2022 vs. Missouri to Nov. 11, 2023 at Missouri, threw at least one touchdown pass in 14 consecutive appearances, which is the third-longest streak in UT history ... Fired 24 completions of 40 or more yards in his time at Tennessee … Ranked among college football’s top 100 players for the 2023 season by On3.com … Selected to and participated in the Senior Bowl in January.
Repeating your lies don't make them true
Delete*FACT: it was YOU, not me who said he'd be cut in camp ... my reasoning was the same as always: no contact, HUGE arm and loads of potential. Your logic? None ... just more GARBAGE
We made the playoff in 2021 with McNamara so I don't see any reason we can't make the final 4 with Orji/Tuttle/Davis.
ReplyDeleteIt's like you said Roany -- defense wins championships.
I think the big thing on O for us is if the OL can be as good as it has been the last 3 years. We know we don't have a stud like JJ so can we run the ball and ask the QB to be a risk-averse supporting cast? We did not have that in 2017-2020. We did 2021-2023.
I disagree with Thunder's Denard in take...but what's new. If Orji is that good or better, it's going to be a repeat baby, even if the D falls off.
ReplyDeleteI get why we are comparing to Denard because it's a run-first QB so far with big questions about pure passing ability, but Orji to my eyes is just a very different player. He runs very differently and he throws differently.
I see a lot more Tebow than Denard.
Yeah, I think that Tebow is an apt comparison. I use Denard only in that they had passes where he was optioning dbs. At least, that's how it looked to me. If he could get a guy to step up or away from the pattern, the duck was released.
ReplyDeleteIf the true measure of a QB is points scored, I think Orji is gonna get it in more frequently than Tuttle or Davis.
Roanman
It comes down to if you think running "counts" or not. If you think an offense can be just as dangerous with a rushing attack that excludes QB as one that includes them, you're never going to see the benefit of guys like Tebow or Denard or even the current NFL MVP.
DeleteI do think you have to adapt your playcalling relative to pocket bound QBs, but Michigan hasn't had that since 2020.
I think the offense could look a lot more like 2021 than 2023. In 2021 we spent most of the year afraid to make any mistakes in the pass game and we used McCarthy as a 50/50 runner/passer package that worked very effectively. In 2023 we spent most of the year trying to keep McCarthy healthy and used Orji mostly as a pure runner, effectively.
Both situations were substitutions with different QBs meaning different offenses. I could see 2024 as having a more consistent playbook and not changing as much between Tuttle and Orji. Just go with whoever is running the offense more effectively to "points scored". Something like 2021 McCarthy package (authentic mix of QB run and QB pass optionality) with a mix of early season 2021 and the second half of OSU 22 and PSU 23 (limiting downfield attempts and trying to win with your run game).
Ugh, I wish I could be so optimistic. A one-dimension offense is a lot tougher to pull off with our schedule in 24 than it would have last year ... I actually agree with Lank and assume we'll get a mixed bag of Tuttle & Orji
ReplyDeleteDenard Robinson under Rich Rodriguez also had a huge advantage of throwing a ton of bubble screens, hitches, etc. It's a QB-friendly offense. Unless Campbell/Moore change offensive philosophies from what they did under Harbaugh, those free access throws aren't going to be there. The RPO throws that led to a bunch of long plays for Roy Roundtree aren't going to be there (as much).
ReplyDeleteSo yes, they're different players. But this offense under Harbaugh hasn't really had to make up for poor passing quarterbacks...except in 2017 and 2020, and things didn't go well in those years. And one of those seasons featured a starting QB who was 6'5", 240 and just ran a 4.56 in the forty. I think Orji is a better runner than Milton, but it's not like Milton was Wilton Speight back there.
RR's was a QB friendly offense if the QB could run. It wasn't a QB friendly offense for Steven Threet or Nick Sheridan.
ReplyDeleteLikewise, for Harbaugh/Moore, if there's a run threat you end up one on one coverage and easy throws.
This is against an elite defense and....not a hard throw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjpFKR4FxWY
But yes, I agree with you that there are a lot fewer easy throws, screens, and reads in the Moore/Harbaugh offense than RR's.
I disagree with your take on poor QBs though Thunder -- the offense made up for a poor passer in 2021. See:
https://www.espn.com/college-football/boxscore/_/gameId/401282773
https://www.espn.com/college-football/boxscore/_/gameId/401331234
When a good defense shut down the run the 2021 team struggled to find answers, which is the same as the 2010 team, which is the same as most teams that don't have an NFL caliber QB.
Since you brought up Milton again I'll say again that he was hurt and playing with a bad supporting cast in 2020. After he left Michigan, the world kept spinning and Joe got recruited by Josh Heupel, going toe to toe with Hendon Hooker, winning an Orange Bowl MVP, leading a top 25 team, and getting drafted by the Patriots.
ReplyDeleteMeanwhile what has Cade done since leaving Michigan?
Well, Milton went to play for an offensive mastermind in Josh Heupel, and McNamara went to play for the worst offensive coordinator in the Big Ten, if not the country.
ReplyDeleteIf you put Milton at Iowa and McNamara at Tennessee, I'm betting McNamara would look better than Milton.
Anyway, the stats don't back you up that McNamara was a poor passer. His PER, completion percentage, etc. just don't bear out that theory. McNamara had a PER of 139.4 while at Michigan, and Milton was at 125.5.
The majority of their playing time was one year apart, so it's not like the offensive personnel changed that much. In fact, you could probably argue that Milton had a better receiving corps in 2020 since he had Ronnie Bell, while McNamara was missing Bell in 2021 after Bell's ACL injury in the season opener.
"If you put Milton at Iowa and McNamara at Tennessee, I'm betting McNamara would look better than Milton."
ReplyDeleteI'd take that bet. Milton beat out McNamara in 2020 and MIchigan continued to play him after he was hurt, because they saw McNamara in practice every day and knew his limitations. Joe was injured and playing so poorly that their hand was forced -- but remember that they STILL put him out there to start against Rutgers after the awful Wisconsin game. Why was that? Because they were wrong about who was the better QB? No -- because Joe was so much the better QB that the vagaries of the injuries affect was unclear. Trust the coaches!
Cade was better against Rutgers very clearly though (shades O'Korn 2017 against Purdue?) so he deservedly got the start against PSU....and stunk up the joint.
You insist on pretending like time stopped when the ball dropped on 2022 but the rest of the world knows what happened. And yes, it's relevant to the McNamara/Milton discussion no matter how much you argue.
---------------------------------------------------------
McNamara is not getting drafted. He went to Iowa (one of the worst offenses in the country for years) because that's the best place that would take him.
Milton got drafted. He went to play for an "offensive mastermind" because offensive masterminds like to have good QBs who can execute their offense, not bad QBs who can't.
--------------------------------------
The offensive personnel around QB was far better in 2021 than 2020, if for no other reason that everyone of note returned a year older and wiser. They also got to practice in the offseason, go through spring practice, and didn't shuffle people around due to injuries and COVID opt outs all season long. There was stability and experience in 2021 on offense around the QB position and in 2020 it was chaos. That's why McNamara and Milton both stunk in 2020.
Had MIlton stuck around in 2021, he would have been successful. MORE successful than McNamara was, because MIlton is simply flat out a better QB than McNamara. Michigan would have had a better season with a better QB. They would have beat MSU, and would have put up a fight against Georgia. With QB as the biggest weakness on the roster they could only do what they did. Joe is a better leader than Cade and a better teammate -- he's consistently been lauded for that everywhere he has gone, while Cade goes on podcasts to disparage Michigan's coaches.
2021 was a great season, but it was a great season despite Cade, not because of him. 2023 was what happens when you have an NFL QB to match NFL supporting cast. If you think Cade cost us a national title in 2021, you might not be wrong.
Lank's narrative:
ReplyDelete"Poor Joe Milton was injured and that's why he played poorly, but McNamara was healthy against PSU and stunk."
An actual reporter:
"Michigan football's starting quarterback Cade McNamara appeared to suffer an upper-body injury in the first quarter of Saturday's game against Penn State...McNamara, making his first career start, was tackled on a scramble on second-and-goal and landed on his right shoulder while bearing the weight of two defenders. He stayed in the game and handed the ball off on third-and-goal, then received immediate medical attention upon leaving the field before entering the locker room for further examination...McNamara, a redshirt freshman, completed 4-of-5 passes for 22 yards in the first quarter with Michigan and Penn State tied, 7-7."
McNamara was 4/5 for 22 yards and had Michigan tied with PSU in the first quarter when he was healthy. He got hurt and then completed 8/20 passes the rest of the game and Michigan lost by 10.
Excuses for Milton; no excuses for McNamara.
Milton beat out McNamara in 2020, but I guess McNamara didn't then beat out Milton and cause him to transfer.
If you can't apply the same logic to both parties, it's not logic. It's just a feeling.
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2020/11/28/michigan-football-quarterback-cade-mcnamara-injury-joe-milton/6450041002/
ReplyDeleteLOL. I don't need to make excuses for McNamara -- you make them everytime. I need to make excuses for Milton because you said he stinks and you continue to say he stinks even as he was Orange Bowl MVP and got drafted to play QB in the NFL.
ReplyDeleteMcNamara didn't beat out Milton when he was healthy. Not once. Didn't happen. Milton was hurt when McNamara beat him out. Just as Milton didn't beat out healthy McNamara during the PSU game.
Milton could play with his injury - it doesn't mean he was unaffected by it. Blake Corum played against OSU in 2022 -- remember? And he was still hobbled by an injury against OSU in 2021 - remember? Same guy, playing hurt, very different abilities. The difference was the severity of injury.
Playing hurt -- a real thing, real people do. If you're actually a football coach and if you actually played any football. You know this! Some guys play hurt and they are 40% as good and some guys play hurt and they are 95% as good and some guys play through an injury pretty much unaffected during the game. There's a range.
But as always, let's ignore that and just make things black and white to suit our narratives about Joe Milton.
This isn't hard but you want SO BAD to be right about Joe Milton even though you've been proven wrong again and again.
PAR
Milton and McNamara both played hurt. Milton and McNamara both produced similarly poor results in aggregate. Milton and McNamara both looked better before their injuries than after.
ReplyDeleteThere is no inconsistency here except that you are unwilling to acknowledge that Joe Milton was hurt but very happy to do so with Cade McNamara. Because you have been playing (un)favorites since you decided you didn't like Joe Milton in 2018.
"McNamara was healthy against PSU "
ReplyDeleteThe fact you are making up quotes Thunder is really pretty telling about the depths you've gone to to try to defend your terrible Milton takes.
Remember how you've spent a decade arguing that Michael Cox getting drafted proves your ancient RB assessments during UM garbage time takes correct? Apparently that logic doesn't apply when it goes the other way?
Maybe the missing piece is Milton transferring to UMASS and throwing for 4 YPA before getting drafted. Then you would have been impressed! Instead he thrived at Tennesse, what a chump -- he should change positions obviously.
I think you're confusing me with someone else.
ReplyDeleteI was high on Milton as a recruit. He played poorly at Michigan. That's just a fact. The numbers bear it out. I never said he should transfer to a DIII school, and I also remember arguing against people who said he should transfer to an FCS program.
He wasn't good at Michigan. He wasn't what Michigan needed at that time. McNamara was a better fit at Michigan. This is all that really matters. What happens at Iowa or Tennessee has no bearing on my take that McNamara was better than Milton AT MICHIGAN.
As for what happens after Michigan, I don't really care. You can say whatever you want. Some guys fit at Michigan. Some don't. Some guys fit elsewhere. Some don't.
If you asked me to rank the starting quarterbacks at Michigan . . . McNamara is still coming in ahead of Milton!
I said he should go G5 or FCS, and stand by it. You get better at football - and specifically at what he struggles with, reads & poise - by playing football ...
ReplyDeleteHe got a scholly at Tennessee, awesome. But that scholarship was based on an incredible ceiling & howitzer arm. Maybe it looks better in a red QB practice jersey, leading to two QB HCs to tap him as the main guy, but both sat him after a couple of live looks
Even in the end (Year6), it was mainly bubbles, screens and wiiide open shots ... not the traditional air raid
His NFL scouting reports read like his HS scouting, and MGo UFR/Vols CFB blogs: inaccurate, flat footed, hesitant, poor/no post snap reads, and LOADS of potential based on natural gifts
Sitting on the bench for most of five years didn't cure his biggest challenges, playing while playing more football may have
Case should finally be closed now since we all agree: garbage
@Thunder
ReplyDeleteMcNamara had a better career than Milton at Michigan. McNamara is a worse QB than Milton.
Both statements can be true. Both seem true. Conflating the two things can lead to some dumb takes.
The counterfactual hypothetical of Milton sticking around for 2021 is unknown but it's very reasonable to assume that the better QB would have produced a better season than the worse QB.
If you want to ignore relevant information that's all up to you. But I know you don't think Tom Brady is just a "pretty good" QB.
@JElly
Bad takes. Based on lies. Garbage in garbage out.
Milton played, Milton got better, Milton started, Milton succeeded, Milton got drafted.
Milton got praised for leadership and patience and being a good teammate. Milton avoided turnovers. Milton managed the offense. Milton won.
The stats are right there to prove you wrong. The results are right there to prove you wrong.
He proved me wrong too. I never thought he'd start a game at Michigan. I never thought he'd get drafted. Exceeded my expectations by far.
#caseclosed
the hypothetical is crazy "if Milton stayed for 2o21 ... "
ReplyDeleteWe already know: he got benched and left ... the coaches made their decision based on garbage performance. He wasn't wanted for 2o21, by coaches who opted for the better (though small & unathletic) one year placeholder Cade McNamara
#caseclosed
@ Lank 11:51 a.m.
ReplyDeleteI don't think Michigan would have won the Big Ten title with Milton in 2021. There are multiple reasons, but one is that Michigan's coaches (I can't remember who, but SOMEONE on this site frequently says "trust the coaches") preferred McNamara over Milton, which led to Milton's transfer.
Milton put up poor numbers all the way through 2021 and didn't look like a good quarterback until year five. I've said this before, but sometimes people need to go through struggles to become who they are. I don't think Tom Brady would have been a 7-time Super Bowl champion if not for the trials he went through at Michigan (with Henson and such). By the same token, I think Milton needed to go through what he went through at Michigan and needed to transfer and needed Josh Heupel in order to maximize his talent.
Joe Milton is who he is because of the combination of experiences he has had up to this point in his life/career.
When Marty McFly went back to 1955 to change the past, he faded out of the picture. Marty McFly needed a specific set of events in order to exist. So I don't think that alternate universe exists where Milton would be better than Cade McNamara if he stuck around for 2021. The 2022 and 2023 versions of Milton would have ceased to exist.
@Thunder
ReplyDeleteYour premise is incorrect. The coaches chose Milton over McNamara when both were healthy. The coaches chose McNamara over Milton only after he was injured (and saw his performance decline dramatically as a result).
In 2021, Milton beat out Hendon Hooker in camp. He lost the job due to an injury, but Hooker was so good Milton never got it back (until Hooker got injured).
Milton, when healthy, has lost QB competitions in 2019 (to Shea Patterson) and 2022 (to Hendon Hooker). McNamara is not on the list.
I trust the Michigan coaches and they said Milton was better when healthy. That's proven out since. McNamara at his best (at Michigan in 2021) was not as good as Milton at his best (starting at Tennessee in 2022 and 2023). I trust the coaches at Tennessee. I trust the coaches in the NFL that said Joe Milton might be an NFL QB (who won't say the same about Cade McNamara).
Aside from that, I completely agree with you that Milton likely benefited dealing with the 2020 season, as difficult as it was. I'm sure it hardened him from external criticism and gave him better perspective than many of his peers who weren't so in the spotlight.
But I don't agree with you that he had to jump to Tennessee to be a better QB and learn from that experience. We saw what he could do in the Minnesota game and we saw him beat out McNamara before that, so there's no telling what a healthy Joe might have looked like in 2021 surrounded by an elite OL, elite D, and coaching staff willing to 'manage' their QB's role rather than relying on him to win games for them. Plus Joe went on to improve from there and that probably would have happened at Michigan as well (although maybe not as much as without Heupel, hard to say).
So you are right that that specific version of Milton would not exist now if he had taken a different path, but if he had stuck around for 2021 it's possible Michigan wins a national title and he goes to the NFL 2 years earlier, or returns in 2022 and JJ McCarthy has to wait a little longer to ascend to a starting spots. OR OR OR.
You seem to assume that Joe Milton at his worst (playing hurt in 2020 on a bad team) would not have been substantially better in 2021 even though you saw Cade McNamara improve dramatically from 2020 to 2021 and you saw Joe Milton improve dramatically from 2020 to 2022 and 2023. That logic doesn't make sense to me. Except it does if you just cover your eyes and pretend only the things that happen at Michigan are relevant.
The fact is that we don't know what would have happened if Joe Milton stuck around to battle Cade McNamara in 2021. What we do know is that Joe Milton and Cade McNamara are the same age, McNamara was the better QB against Rutgers in 2020, and Milton was the better QB until he got hurt in 2020, and the better QB since 2021.
Blah, blah, blah
ReplyDeleteMilton won jobs in shirts & shells, no contact practices. He got benched when lights got turned on
You love to quote MGo, but continue to dodge their own UFR after Minnesota: short & easy throws served up for a first time starter. Wide open deep shots were missed. You also ignore that the "AIR RAID" got turned into the "Screen Rain" in Knoxville, because Milton would panic unless he had plenty of time and wiiiide open receivers
That arm cannon though! Yes, coaches do & should take a shot on a unique physical talent like that, and they did
#garbage
#caseclosed
@jelly. I know the words are challenging for you, but I believe it's never to late to change. At any point you can stop making up your own reality when it is countered by FACTS. I gave you the stats on depth of target and air yards. Inconvenient truths to your lies. Jim Harbaugh, Josh Heupel, and the NFL all disagree with you and put him on the field. The resume speaks for itself but keep your head in the sand. Let's be honest, it is too late, for you. You aren't built for this. You never were and never will be.
ReplyDelete@Jelly
ReplyDeleteWhen did Milton lose a job due performance "with the lights on"?
Not 2019 - he lost in camp
Not 2020 - he lost the job after he was hurt.
Not 2021 - he lost the job after he was hurt.
Not 2022 - he lost in camp
Not 2023 - he started all year
3 posts = rent free!
ReplyDeleteAh, the reality of Lank ... maybe you're not a liar, but delusional ?
Show me: show me that Milton got benched BECAUSE of injury ... I'll wait
We've been through the actual facts & timelines. Joe hurt his thumb against sparty, finished the game and then played in every game after (even throwing his best passes in a Winged helmet at Indiana) ... Joe hurt his ankle against Pitt, came out for warmups after halftime, and still sat. He still dressed for every game
Joe got benched because the offenses bogged down under his leadership. His mistakes were costly. He was GARBAGE, at both schools
We've also been through the scouts, who do agree with me on all but one thing: poor presnap reads, no postsnap reads, bad decisions, hesitant to run, relies on his arm rather than working a Defense, etc ... they do not conclude that he's garbage though. That's just Lank & JE ... they all instead see the potential with that arm, and feel someone is going to give him a shot
That's it Lank, that's the reality, based on historical facts. I've shared every snap videos, I've shared stats, I've even used your guys over at MGo ... accept reality: this thing was over when you concluded Joe is garbage, but continues because you like the beatings
#caseclosed
Still here, posting through it. All that's missing is #obsessed.
ReplyDeleteMilton got benched after being injured in 2020 and 2021. Look it up. It's published news.
The scouts said Joe Milton was worth drafting to the NFL. Rudock 191, Milton 193. Look it up. It's published news.
The facts are the facts. The accomplishments are history. Look them up.
#caseclosed
AREER HONORS
2024 Reese's Senior Bowl Invitee
Maxwell Award Player of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
Manning Award Star of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
Reese's Senior Bowl Offensive Player of the Week (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
East-West Shrine Bowl Monday Morning Quarterback (vs. Vanderbilt, 11/25/23)
SEC Co-Offensive Player of the Week (vs. Virginia, 9/2/23)
2023 Jason Witten Collegiate Man of the Year Semifinalist
2023 Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award Top 25 Candidate
2022 Capital One Orange Bowl MVP
CAREER
Strong-armed, veteran quarterback who played three seasons with the Vols after beginning his career at Michigan … Played in 43 games with 21 starts in his collegiate career, including 29 appearances at Tennessee with 16 starts … Possesses all of the tools to be a future NFL quarterback … Served as the starter for the first two games of the 2021 season for UT before being injured … Stayed the course, developed and spelled an injured Hendon Hooker to start the final two games of the 2022 campaign, capping it with an MVP performance in the Capital One Orange Bowl … Enrolled at Tennessee in June 2021 after playing three seasons at Michigan, including the 2020 campaign in which he was the starter in five games … Wore the SEC graduate patch after earning his bachelor’s degree from Michigan in May 2021 … In 14 career games at Michigan, accounted for 1,350 total yards of offense — 1,194 passing and 156 rushing — and eight TDs – five passing and three rushing ... Wore No. 5 at Michigan but wore No. 7 at Tennessee, the number he wore in high school ... Owned a 13-8 record as a starter in college, including 11-5 at Tennessee … In three seasons with the Vols, completed 314- of-498 (.631) passes for 4,159 yards and 32 touchdowns with five interceptions … Accounted for 4,664 yards of total offense at UT, adding nine scores and 505 yards on the ground ... Finished 12th in UT career total offense … Threw 216 passes at UT before his first interception as a Vol, which was the second-longest streak of attempts without a pick in program history (Hendon Hooker, 261) and the ninth-longest streak in SEC history ... From Nov. 12, 2022 vs. Missouri to Nov. 11, 2023 at Missouri, threw at least one touchdown pass in 14 consecutive appearances, which is the third-longest streak in UT history ... Fired 24 completions of 40 or more yards in his time at Tennessee … Ranked among college football’s top 100 players for the 2023 season by On3.com … Selected to and participated in the Senior Bowl in January.
You left out the Big Brother award ... that's my favorite
DeleteYou didn't even try to dispute the reality, only repeating your revisionist history. Comical
Another dub for je
#outsmarted
#caseclosed